Let's Talk Itemization

[Arkalezth]

Well, one way or another, +5 items are more balanced and don't make spells obsolete. Regarding armour, I use some magic bracers for the armour bonus, and may eventually put an elemental enchantment (or two, if possible) on the armour itself. That prevents me from using a different set of gloves, but there aren't so many decent gloves in Dasaria anyway.

That said, I agree with Triangles in that I don't exactly feel the need for a change and I can go on with things as they are. But if the change was finally made, I'd welcome it.

[Hvrankel]

I will be the apologist who doesn't mind the way things are right now.

Same

[Peregrinus]

To those of you happy with the way things are right now: Why?

[Althalus]

I will be the apologist who doesn't mind the way things are right now.

And I'll stand right behind her, nodding vigorously and using her as a human shield.

[triangles]

I will be the apologist who doesn't mind the way things are right now.

And I'll stand right behind her, nodding vigorously and using her as a human shield.

Alth D:

To those of you happy with the way things are right now: Why?

I do not actually refute your arguments, but I also do not mind these imbalances because they only contribute so much to my enjoyment. It's hard to explain it any other way. Anne is the most powerful character I've ever played, but I don't play her to be powerful. Conversely, Click is very poorly put together but that doesn't stop me from playing her.

If you pit two characters against one another then I think the imbalances become magnified, but it doesn't matter to me because characters mostly fight NPCs where working together is much more important than individual efforts. Click isn't great in an even fight, but screen her and put her against a favoured enemy and she is crazy good. Anne is pretty good in a straight fight, but surround her with soldiers and she can make everyone else great without doing any fighting at all. This is because they play to their strengths instead of trying to be the biggest baddest punching bag.

But triangles, what does this have to do with equipment, and is there an argument about having better equipment?

Everything, because the argument for better equipment is to lessen the imbalance between different kinds of characters. The imbalances are not so severe and do not come up frequently enough for me to desire changes. If anything, it's nice to pick up a +3 sword and know that you've made it. The equipment has always been "good enough" to make it. Powerful characters like Anne feel like over-achivers rather than a benchmark that everyone needs to reach.

[Amora]

I agree with Triangle, while it would be nice to find +5 armor and weapons, the trick is to teach all you magi to stand in the back and buff the party, like true PnP. If those magi were buffing others before buffing self, they would realize they could buff a larger party, make self invisible, and reap exp and loot without having to lift an finger past the buff stage. I used to do this all the time with a sorc EK build I had on another server. Sure I could buff the crap out of myself and go pound face, but it was more fun to make the fighter much better than I was full buffed, and let him do all the work while I sat back and watched the carnage.

I would be in favor of the spell component costs as well. I played on a server that had it, and by the time you get to the levels where you start to pay for the spells, you hardly notice it when soloing. In a group, if the party you had was generous with allowing you to get some of the loot, you'd still make out a good chunk of gold after the quest and dungeon. It's all about communication in your party to make sure you can at least break even on the gold part. also servers that had it, I never seen anyone complain about the prices and they were similar to what Peregrinus listed. It also helps reinforce the fact that it's a good idea to bring along a rogue, to get into more chests and loot at the end of the dungeons.

Also all your stoneskin and /10 adamantine resistance is useless against adamantine blades (if you really wanted to get into it) which is why I have a set of +3 adamantine blades. It does suck however that I do not have the ability to put on some acid resistance onto them without using a vial for a short duration, and those vials I tend to use to make traps. But the "main stay" of all magi protection I bypass with a simple use of materials.

[Arkalezth]

the trick is to teach all you magi to stand in the back and buff the party, like true PnP.

Exactly. I'm not suggesting just to buff and watch, since I'd personally find that boring, but rather to buff the party and not just themselves.

Yesterday my berserker was in a party with 3 wizards. They would buff their AC, saves, DR, concealment... you name it. Then they would tell my barely buffed warrior: "Go ahead." Other than HP, I had, by far, the worst defences in the party. Later on I asked for a couple of specific buffs and I got them, so no offence to those involved, and casters usually require a greater learning curve than warriors, but I think it's a good example to illustrate my point (i.e. party roles). They could have just buffed me and fill the rest of their slots with control and damage spells, for instance, and have a more effective party overall (not saying it wasn't effective enough, mind you).

I'll let Hitler explain it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP5uWXNBYgY

[Peregrinus]

I agree with Triangle, while it would be nice to find +5 armor and weapons, the trick is to teach all you magi to stand in the back and buff the party, like true PnP. If those magi were buffing others before buffing self, they would realize they could buff a larger party, make self invisible, and reap exp and loot without having to lift an finger past the buff stage. I used to do this all the time with a sorc EK build I had on another server. Sure I could buff the crap out of myself and go pound face, but it was more fun to make the fighter much better than I was full buffed, and let him do all the work while I sat back and watched the carnage.

To say all PnP based games run like this is... hardly true. I've played PnP DnD for ten years and in my group the arcanists rarely cast any buffs beyond Haste and the occasional Improved Invisible for the Rogue. Also, one of the big problems non-casters have at higher levels is soloing, where casters can run most dungeons with impunity. The only non-casters I've seen able to run upper level content solo are ones who have HiPS, since it allows them to control and an engagement and so paper cut the enemies to death.

In groups, I do try to hand out buffs to those I know need it, but in groups is not where the issue is, or if the group has no arcanist or cleric. I should also note that fun is relative, some folks enjoy enhancing their teammates and sitting back to just toss the occasional offensive spell. If you enjoy that, more power to you, but not all players feel that way. There are many ways to play a caster, and buff and bash, buff and blast, or any other style are all legitimate.

However, only casters have that option of flexibility. If a non-caster wants to be effective and able to solo at higher levels, they have to either pend a fortune on wands or use a handful of builds that help make up the gap. Why do all rogues seem to hit PrCs that give the HiPS? Because they have to have it. Why are so many melee builds go into Dragon Disciple? Because its the only way to make a melee character on par with even the most basic of the casters.

Also all your stoneskin and /10 adamantine resistance is useless against adamantine blades (if you really wanted to get into it) which is why I have a set of +3 adamantine blades. It does suck however that I do not have the ability to put on some acid resistance onto them without using a vial for a short duration, and those vials I tend to use to make traps. But the "main stay" of all magi protection I bypass with a simple use of materials.

This idea is mainly focused on PvE concerns, there's no way to balance PvP in 3.5 DnD, it's pointless to even try.

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Triangles, I can't really say anything about how you feel. Feeling's ain't wrong and aren't debatable. That said, I would point out there's many folks who play non-casters who don't like the feel of being so second string to casters. I think introducing +5 Weapons/Armor/Shields would have minimal impact on the feel of the server. There's already +4 weapons floating around, so the difference there is minimal. The bug one that would help is the +5 Armor/Shields, which if used together would bring most non-casters ACs up by 4 points. That may not seem like much for a caster, but that's the difference between a 36 (gonna get hit a lot by enemies) and a 40 (the rough "sweet spot" for AC on Dasaria). I'd like non-casters to be able to hit the sweet spot without having to sacrifice like casters can. Note, by sweet spot, I don't mean the spot where enemies always miss. It's roughly the spot where the enemy's first attack has about a 50% miss chance on you, and goes downhill from there (varying dependent on the enemies, obviously).

[Hvrankel]

I was thinking on the idea about the spellcomponents costing money. I really do not like that one since i have many times been in Groups where the mentality Finders Keepers was a priority. The last thing i would like is to argue about that i would need a part of the loot to cast my spells. Sure i can go solo and gather the money but that would remove some of the fun if it just was for that reason.

[Wired]

My two cents are pretty short, in that there's just a few things out there that lack sufficient thinking about trade-offs that happened early in NWN2 and WAY before we had all of the customizability we do now. The rest of its kind of academic, it'll never be perfectly balanced and there's enough broken things that it all comes out in the laundry. Maybe this is another way of supporting the "Triangles Hypothesis."

Personally I like the idea that player-created items, player buffs will always be marginally better than what can be found or bought off the rack. At high levels, exotic metals are more important than AB, and player-crafters being the only source of these I always thought was a huge differentiator for Dasaria.

If I were starting the game from scratch today I would just Exclude RDD as a PRC, would eliminate Domains and Divine Power from Clerics (possibly others, they have too many stacking buffs generally, particularly AB-wise) and force them to use blunt-only weapons. Combat expertise for casters and maybe some of the shield stacking mechanics would have to go out the window too. Lower on my list, I might preclude Druids from using metal armor or shields. I don't hate Shadowdancer that much but I might just get rid of it and make HIPS (indoors-only) as one of the high-level elective feats for any Rogue-type. All of that is impossible to do in hindsight though.

I never really saw much of a fighter vs. gish conflict and I play both. While you can get some higher numbers buffing, it's a pain to spend all that time buffing, you're vulnerable to dispells, and maybe only really worthwhile while soloing. I never begrudged casters their GWM, HOWEVER... they should either be casting it on my fighter, not themselves, or they should be memorizing some AOEs and nukes instead, because that's actually a lot more helpful to the party than having them try to play both roles.

[Peregrinus]

Personally I like the idea that player-created items, player buffs will always be marginally better than what can be found or bought off the rack. At high levels, exotic metals are more important than AB, and player-crafters being the only source of these I always thought was a huge differentiator for Dasaria.

Would it not be easy enough to then introduce the required items into the loot pool to let player crafters make +5 Weapons/Shields/Armor? That would maintain that balance and the overall feel, while still helping bring up the non-casters. And yeah, I'll agree that for attacking special materials are more important. My main focus is really on The armor and shield modifiers. That +4 AC would be a huge help to a lot of melee builds that aren't RDD. Leave weapons as they are, its those I feel really need to be buffed.

If I were starting the game from scratch today I would just Exclude RDD as a PRC, would eliminate Domains and Divine Power from Clerics (possibly others, they have too many stacking buffs generally, particularly AB-wise) and force them to use blunt-only weapons. Combat expertise for casters and maybe some of the shield stacking mechanics would have to go out the window too. Lower on my list, I might preclude Druids from using metal armor or shields. I don't hate Shadowdancer that much but I might just get rid of it and make HIPS (indoors-only) as one of the high-level elective feats for any Rogue-type. All of that is impossible to do in hindsight though.

I have all kinds of things to say on this... but this thread is about itemization... so I'll cut this and respond to it over here.

I never really saw much of a fighter vs. gish conflict and I play both. While you can get some higher numbers buffing, it's a pain to spend all that time buffing, you're vulnerable to dispells, and maybe only really worthwhile while soloing. I never begrudged casters their GWM, HOWEVER... they should either be casting it on my fighter, not themselves, or they should be memorizing some AOEs and nukes instead, because that's actually a lot more helpful to the party than having them try to play both roles.

[/quote]
I really don't want it to be seen as a fighter versus gish issue. I want folks to remember, I main a gish, I'm not asking for buffs for myself, I get nothing from these suggestions. The fact is though that when it comes to tanking casters do it better than non-casters, but fighting on the line, tanking and that is suppose to be the main hat of the melee fighters. They can certainly be helped by being buffed, but I feel that a class should be able to full their primary roll well without needing outside resources to do so, and feel that as it stands, they can't do so, mainly because their AC is just out and out to low.

[Arkalezth]

There's one obvious thing I had forgotten to mention (sorry if someone else has done so already, but I don' think so): If healing items are one of the problems, at least regarding players' economy while playing one class or another, why not just make them cheaper?

[Sahji]

Okay, I'm still reading through ALL of these posts.....I just discovered this thread.

Speaking of Itemization, as a part of a player-run shop, I have had some ideas to introduce new items. As I rarely have played casters, I have messed around with my different options in potions and charms from the charm shop. What I would like to see are an expansion of these "charms"--basically, spells that all classes can use. Granted, they cost money, and if you really want to be protected you'll be dropping some cash in the long run. But it may HELP at least, to at least give certain noncasters access to these spells.

The only thing is, as a NON caster player....I have no idea what spells to itemize/charmify. I don't know what would be OP to itemify...

One thing that I definitely wanted to do was some voodoo doll thing that gives Protection Vs. Good, since there's a Protection Vs. Evil in the charms shop, haha!

Any suggestions? I don't think the shop should have access to +5 weapons...+4s are hard enough to come by, so it's probably not in the "range" of crafting.

I've also considered POISONS viewtopic.php?f=34&t=12144 , better ones, with more "useful" traits....