Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?

[baby1111007]

Is anyone else scared that Lanky, Pere, Grayle, BR, SK and myself actually agree on something?

Maybe it really is a happy new year! hahaha

or the world is ending?

or here is a thought, that the concept is so blatant that even you adversaries can agree? Wow, I think I am on to something here.

[Michael]

I'd argue that removing spell resistance is bigger of a "nerf" than adding the xp cap, as it also takes away from the inherent nature of the involved races.

Moreover, xp cap is most likely the least time and work-intensive solution.

Sometimes, balance requires certain measures to be taken. Just off of the top of the head - how many high-population NwN1 servers allowed unmodified Timestop spell?

[JaeEleutheria]

(This is Pere posting from Jae's computer... forgot to log in my name... gah...)

A number of explanations have been given as to why the racial bonuses are no substitute for 2 or 3 levels.

Actually, all those "explanations" have been complete bunk to those of us who know DnD.

Anyone who knows DnD would know that in a proper campaign, characters never make it to level 20 anyway, and that they should be retired if they do.

The thing that's great about Dasaria is its willingness to put a damper on that "dm_givexp 1000000" videogame mentality, and focus on a story. I would bet anything we wouldn't be having this conversation if the DM client was working and things could really get under way.

We're talking about the correct way to balance the power of the races when characters reach level 20, which is, in itself an excercise in number crunching. It should be pretty clear that a drow at level 18 is, in most cases, considerably weaker than its counterparts at level 20.

Actually, there is not a single jot or tiddle about "retiring PCs if they hit 20" anywhere in DnD. In fact, there is extensive support for the idea of gaming at 20th level and beyond into epic levels. Dasaria has not had epic levels, and so stops growth at 20th, even in NWN1.

As to the "in a proper campaign" comment, that is entirely dependant on the group and the DM. I am a PnP DM and with one game that is geared towards the player characters eventually getting at least to 18th level (they are presently 14th). Dasaria has long embraced high level characters and high level events. If your PnP groups have played by that idea, that's there perogative, and all the more power to them if they can give up characters that they've likely played for years (in PnP, it can and does take that long.)

Yes, Dasaria focuses on the story, but you're dead wrong, we'd be having this dicussion whether or not everything was perfect. we'd be having this discussion even if the server was availible and we wanted to play. How do I know. *looks over to bronc and lank* Hey, one of you guys want to look up some of our old debates? Might be best to find one of the most vicious and nasty ones, that way the newer players can understand bronc's and my pleasant surprise on our agreement.

As to your final commment, that a level 18 drow is weaker than a level 20 something else. No, its not apparent, even with my number crunching, I don't find them weak enough to warant allowing them to get up to level 20. I can think of a couple of exceptions, but those are for a few specific spellcasting classes that depend on their level for spells known (Bard and Sorc specifically). If you dropped the SR, then I'd call them a +1 level adjustment, but as they stand, they are a definiate +2.

[k9burn]

Is anyone else scared that Lanky, Pere, Grayle, BR, SK and myself actually agree on something?

Maybe it really is a happy new year! hahaha

Count me in as well...

...yes its scary.

[Greensleeves]

Since we've determined this is all in good fun, a few points for the sake of veracity.

Actually, there is not a single jot or tiddle about "retiring PCs if they hit 20" anywhere in DnD.

This is mentioned, verbatim practically, in several versions of the DM Guide.

In fact, there is extensive support for the idea of gaming at 20th level and beyond into epic levels. Dasaria has not had epic levels, and so stops growth at 20th, even in NWN1.

As to the "in a proper campaign" comment, that is entirely dependant on the group and the DM. I am a PnP DM and with one game that is geared towards the player characters eventually getting at least to 18th level (they are presently 14th). Dasaria has long embraced high level characters and high level events. If your PnP groups have played by that idea, that's there perogative, and all the more power to them if they can give up characters that they've likely played for years (in PnP, it can and does take that long.)

A development brought to DnD by the WoW generation. The idea that play begins at the maximum level is one unique to persistant online worlds (a byproduct of the concept of a grind), I wouldn't argue for a minute that there are broad differences between Dasaria and PnP.

Yes, Dasaria focuses on the story, but you're dead wrong, we'd be having this dicussion whether or not everything was perfect. we'd be having this discussion even if the server was availible and we wanted to play. How do I know. *looks over to bronc and lank* Hey, one of you guys want to look up some of our old debates? Might be best to find one of the most vicious and nasty ones, that way the newer players can understand bronc's and my pleasant surprise on our agreement.

I realize this now.

As to your final commment, that a level 18 drow is weaker than a level 20 something else. No, its not apparent, even with my number crunching, I don't find them weak enough to warant allowing them to get up to level 20. I can think of a couple of exceptions, but those are for a few specific spellcasting classes that depend on their level for spells known (Bard and Sorc specifically). If you dropped the SR, then I'd call them a +1 level adjustment, but as they stand, they are a definiate +2.

It is. I promise. <3

[seethings]

The essenace of the debate is to establish a world with more humans (and half humans i assume).

I would go for any number of small gestures that orientate towards role play rather than mesing with all the mechanics. The debate about flaws being added is silly as the races already have flaws. Try Deep gnome favoured class Bard (Charisma based) with -4 charisma penalty. I have taken this FLAW on as a role play curiosity. Ok so i get defence AC bonus in combat. But its not all about combat, I struggle permanently against my Charisma penalty -4. If i wnated to power build a Bard why would i wnat a gnome Bard.!!!

So the whole discusiion is silly. I think the NWN2 developers have designed a well balanced game (hell we all love to play it). The point The Dm's are making is that the wish to see more human-like characters. I think all the gentle role-play world buid suggestions will work, Dm client focus on humans... shops and items more human focussed, slight harrasment by the guard for Dark ones... etcetc...

If I was a Dm i would want to spend my time creating a human reward based shop or adventure rather than, fiddle stats and prosectue mathematecal formulae.

regards

[obsoletenihilist]

Deep Gnomes actually favor rogues. Rock gnomes favor bards.

[Grahat'mah]

SR of an ECL race is EASILY, I repeat, EASILY overcome by a spellcaster of the same level casting Assay Resistance. (A 4th lvl Cleric/Sorc/Wiz spell)

ALSO, every mainly spellcasting class has a spell resistance spell available.

Just thought I would put that out there... Carry on.

[BeyondRedemption]

Is anyone else scared that Lanky, Pere, Grayle, BR, SK and myself actually agree on something?

Maybe it really is a happy new year! hahaha

or the world is ending?

or here is a thought, that the concept is so blatant that even you adversaries can agree? Wow, I think I am on to something here.

Cues the REM...It's the end of the world as we know it!

[BeyondRedemption]

SR of an ECL race is EASILY, I repeat, EASILY overcome by a spellcaster of the same level casting Assay Resistance. (A 4th lvl Cleric/Sorc/Wiz spell)

ALSO, every mainly spellcasting class has a spell resistance spell available.

Just thought I would put that out there... Carry on.

So what you are saying is that drow get a free level whatever spellslot that resistance spell occupies.

[ConcordDawn]

It is a great pity that scripting a racial percentage at login is not (currently?) possible.

The reality seems to be that the entire purpose of the discussion, to dramatically increase the number of humans by percentage in Cear/ Dasaria, has been diverted into a NWN2 forum style power-gaming race nerfing ability complaining uber rant.

Perhaps we should be trying to petition the folks who developed this fine game to create code hooks that allow scripts to modify logins arbitrarily. At least by determining what is a reasonable spread of races within the server at any given time, we could create the campaign feel as desired.

I know that implementing a level cap via an experience ceiling will probably not eliminate the possibility of having 35 drow in Cear at once. But I much prefer the idea of disuading the continued play of masses of unwanted races by reducing the maximum achievable level.

I won't pretend I'm not emotionally involved in this discussion, but I will say that I think any mechanism that involves selective mechanical rebalancing is a dangerous path.

CD aka Hobble

[Peregrinus]

SR of an ECL race is EASILY, I repeat, EASILY overcome by a spellcaster of the same level casting Assay Resistance. (A 4th lvl Cleric/Sorc/Wiz spell)

ALSO, every mainly spellcasting class has a spell resistance spell available.

Just thought I would put that out there... Carry on.

Here's the problems with that assumption. Firstly, not all casters will either have access to that spell, or have it prepared, the same with spell resistance. Honestly, I can't see a reason as a sorcerer to even pick it up as one of my 4 level 4 spells known, its to conditional to be worthwhile. Bards and Druids don't even have something like it, so 2 out of the 5 main casting classes don't have it.

As to your second statement only Clerics and Druids get the spell Spell Resistance as a 5th level spell.

So, in other words, Drow and Deep Gnomes get a level 5 spell permanently in affect at all times.

Now, onto Greensleeves...

This is mentioned, verbatim practically, in several versions of the DM Guide.

I've never seen it then, can you give me a link to such passage on the d20srds, or perhaps a page number from the 3.5 DMG? Until such a time, I know there's an entire chapter in the 3.5 DMG dealing with characters above 20th, and for 3.0 DnD an entire book.

A development brought to DnD by the WoW generation. The idea that play begins at the maximum level is one unique to persistent online worlds (a byproduct of the concept of a grind), I wouldn't argue for a minute that there are broad differences between Dasaria and PnP.

Hardly, we were having debates like this long before WoW came out. I had conversations about power-levels with Haxley in real life* about this sort of thing long before I even got into online persistent worlds. ;p

--------------------
* Explanation for the new folks. Haxley = Stormknife. Haxley and I went to college together and played PnP DnD while at said school, Hax in fact was one of the major people who got me involved in DnD. Further, Hax is also the person responsible for getting me involved in Dasaria, nearly a year after I started PnP RPing with him and others.

[Maankin]

It is a great pity that scripting a racial percentage at login is not (currently?) possible.

Can't this be handled in the same way the "the server is full" was handled? Or even at the inn door?

Isn't the idea of this topic to increase the number of humans and reduce the number of ALL subraces, and not to severely gimp the ECL races?
There would still be masses of elves, gnomes, half-orcs, dwarves and halflings roaming the "human" world.

On the other hand, if rebalancing is nescessary for the many many PvP events that happen on the server,
can't a Epithet feat be used to say, halve the spell resistance bonus and/or reduce the armor bonus?

Because at that level those little benefits are not worth two levels. SR in drow is dandy, but that and a few stat bonuses aren't on the same level as two class levels at the end of the game. They're just not.
Papermonk

[UltimaBoB]

Capped at level 17 and 18 Svirf and Drow are noticeably - markedly even - weaker than any of the normal races at 20.

Allowed to get to 20 they are noticeably stronger (but not by as much as they are weaker if capped at 17 and 18 IMO).

Neither the XP Cap nor the basic rules will balance them at 20. But given a choice, I think the first option is better than the second. But clearly NEITHER is ideal.

[Grayle]

Amazing.

Part of the reasoning behind this idea is to make these 'rare' races a less popular choice.

Something's got to give. The ideal choice isn't what balances these races amongst player choice as character options, the ideal choice is what makes ECL races less numerous even than they are now.