Tieflings are the best!

[Rob]

Im gonna make one have him dual wield quarter staves and call him the Bellringer.

That made me chuckle!

[Rex]

Just a suggestion, make quest(s) that give out key items ( undroppable of course ) that will balance out the races. A wizard quest that gives out a +2 intelligence staff ( or something of similiar power ), that Drows and Teiflings can't get access too. Use the idea for all the classes that will get "twinked" . You could then support this with a few minor items that are very race specific, if you want a human based world put in lots of human only items. Before everyone starts going on about UMD just put in a script that bypasses this on your choosen items.

This though won't stop loads of noobs logging into Dasaria with monk deep gnomes, drow bards and tiefling thieves. To keep the ambience of the campaign you will have to ban them or limit them. No matter what the playing community say about not nerfing races if you don't want lots of twinkys then you only have one option really.

[Stormknife]

I think you missed the point.

We are trying, in our own roundabout way, to explain the absolute necessity of a level limit or stat adjustment.

Then we're agreeing on that part, heh.

Sometimes you just have to be very -ar...ti...cu...late...-

Weren't we supposed to leave all the old grudges in Das1?

[Kell]

I think you missed the point.

We are trying, in our own roundabout way, to explain the absolute necessity of a level limit or stat adjustment.

Then we're agreeing on that part, heh.

Sometimes you just have to be very -ar...ti...cu...late...-

Weren't we supposed to leave all the old grudges in Das1?

Yes. But it's true though!

[Nemesis]

I would LOVE to see the subraces given the same stats as some other races so there is no advantage to them. (Please make Asimir's like humans ). And as to hak paks, I don't mind downloading whatever we need to download...if it's too big I'll just leave it on all night.

[k9burn]

Watering down the subraces because they are more 'powerful' seems to contradict the idea of these subraces to begin with.

They are supposed to be different...and slightly more powerful, with one disadvantage, they level more slowly.

Have you ever played a deep gnome? 10000 experience to get to level 2. In a challenging campaign this is no easy feat. If the content is setup correctly they will always be 3 levels behind their comrades....putting them at quite a disadvantage.

In my opinion I would never pick a deep gnome because of this. They are going to be grossly outleveled where it counts...that is assuming the content doesnt unfairly allow me to gain experience quickly.

The only issue at hand is the maximum achievable experience. This should be set to 190,000 so that all characters are on an equal playing field. Adding in side bonuses or other random things to "balance" it out would take any incentive to play these races because of their ECL.

If you don't believe me, try playing a deep gnome in the Single Player Campaign...or on another PW server that has a slow leveling rate.


If you water down tieflings (or other powrerful subraces) you better look at dwarves too:

+2 con -2 cha (most classes dont need cha)
+2 to all saves vs spells (pretty much where it matters)
+2 to saves vs poison
+4 dodge ac vs giants
...and thats not all

All for a low low price of 0 ECL!

[lankycheese]

they level more slowly.

But that's the thing, they may level more slowly, but in the end they will be 20th like everyone else and much more powerful then the standard races. Why even bother playing a human paladin when you can go Aasimar? Why even bother playing a human wizard when you can go Tiefling? They present incentives that will be outside of the Role Play and then we will much more of these classes then Jeh ever wanted for his campaign. It's a prodiminantly human based world in a human based Empire, there is enough variety as it is with the standard races.

Watering down the subraces because they are more 'powerful' seems to contradict the idea of these subraces to begin with.

The very idea of subraces is that they are a subset of the more common race. If they are much more powerful in the end then we will be seeing them all over the place and they won't be very sub anymore.

"Oh look a white drow!"

Edit: I just re read the part where you agreed on the XP capping. Then yes that's what I agree with completely. Would mean you only get people who want to play these classes playing them, and their stat bonuses balance out but also stay for RP reasons.

[Zephis]

Lanky...
At level 20, if things such as 5 resistance to some energy types, and +2 int are actual deal breakers on how well a char plays then you've seriously miss-managed your feats and spell selection.

Personally from looking over the forums I think people are freaking out left and right and not actually thinking things through...

Tho I imagine I'm not going to make many friends with my opinions :/

[Anen]

Lanky...
At level 20, if things such as 5 resistance to some energy types, and +2 int are actual deal breakers on how well a char plays then you've seriously miss-managed your feats and spell selection.

Personally from looking over the forums I think people are freaking out left and right and not actually thinking things through...

Tho I imagine I'm not going to make many friends with my opinions :/

I don't think the concern is that they might or might not be deal breakers, but rather that there is no reason why you wouldn't pick a tiefling.

If you could choose between two jobs that were identical, but one job paid 50K and the other job paid 55K, you're going to take the second one. Obviously there won't be a large difference in income in where you can live, what you can buy, or what car you might drive, but the fact remains, you're going to pick it because it's better.

[Zephis]

I don't think the concern is that they might or might not be deal breakers, but rather that there is no reason why you wouldn't pick a tiefling.

If you could choose between two jobs that were identical, but one job paid 50K and the other job paid 55K, you're going to take the second one. Obviously there won't be a large difference in income in where you can live, what you can buy, or what car you might drive, but the fact remains, you're going to pick it because it's better.

Well in the same vein, why doesnt everyone play Half orc Monks?
No wis penalty, massive STR, no Dex penalty.
And even better no ECL.

Even Half orc clerics make insane warmachines, Close combat ability, can heal themselves or do horrible things with their spells, and all they loose out on is their turning ability.

The list goes on as to classes you can do horrible things with in combination some a race if your power gaming, or just feeling bloody minded.

Thing is, not everything is down to roll playing, but people seem to be making the assumption it is. Or atleast it is for everyone that will come play here.

I joined the server because its in the Story/PW category, if however the primary concern is with numbers then maybe it should be in the Action/PW category instead?

People would Pick a Human wizard over the Tiefling because they might have a nice story, or maybe because the bonus feat and extra skill points would come in handy.

Personally I came here to Role play, I've got 12 Chr, points in dialog skills which may very well go totally unused if my past experience with PW's is anything to go by. I'm probably going to get horribly mauled by each and every monster I encounter because I've chosen to go it as a rogue/archer, and because I have an ECL I have even less Hitpoints then most people would at the level I'll be taking on the baddies at.

[Anen]

I definitely hear you. There are other combinations with the existing races that are pretty smooth, but the ECL subraces have some nice bonuses that we don't see in the other subraces.

I came here to RP as well. I'm not here for the number grind or the "crunch". If I wanted that I'd go play WoW.

I'm not disputing your points, I am merely illuminating the argument that many "number-crunch" players out there (and they will be in Dasaria, there is no doubt about that) will roll with the best race/subraces when they create a character. When you add PVP to the mix, things may get messy. I think that's the concern here.

I agree with you, though. I'm in favour of the XP cap. It encourages the utilization of those subraces for RP purposes, which is always a good thing.

[ChikenKannon]

But that's the thing, they may level more slowly, but in the end they will be 20th like everyone else and much more powerful then the standard races.

I thought the DMs had implemented at top 190,000 XP cap for the odd subraces limiting the maximum level. I believe the Tiefling cap was level 19 and the Deep Gnome was 17. If this IS implemented it does remove some of the "WHERE THE HELL IS YOUR FLAW?!"-shouting.

As a Tiefling Rogue (Preparing for your scorn) I try to play like a half-demon would act in Varana where there is mostly Humans. Wear helmets and hats to cover the horns, insult and pretend to fear tieflings in order to divert attention from myself. Now that doesn't change the advantage in power but I think that if played correctly people won't WANT to play a Tiefling, they wouldn't WANT to show their horns in public for fear of being insulted and/or attacked.

[lankycheese]

I'm hear for RP too, but there is still a G(ame) in RPG and I love to play that aswell. There is no rule saying you can't play the numbers and play RP, I for one love building awesome characters but not at the expense of theme and story. I'm concerned because if there is no limit (which it looks like there's that XP cap which is awesome ^^) then people will play a subrace for no other reason then extra numbers. And each extra little does count, contrary to popular belief, especially now when you can't stack ability points.

Well in the same vein, why doesnt everyone play Half orc Monks?

I would never make a Horc Monk because I couldn't cop the hit to Int, you need 14 Int for a Monk IMO but that's just me.

Numbers ftw! But not at the expense of RP!

[Kazak]

14 Int for the monk? Could you explain?

[Peregrinus]

You need the skill points for Hide, Move Silent, Tumble, Spot, Listen, and Concentration. That's 6 main skills, which means you need 6 skill points per level to keep them maxed. Unless you're human, that means you need a 14 Int, humans can get away with a 12, Int.

HOrk monks need to dump a lot of points into Int to goto a 14 from a 6, a total of 8 points at creation... that's a lot for a secondary stat, especially considering a human only needs to spend 4 in the same stat to get the same effect.