Full rogue?

[Alterity]

Interesting attempt Alt but I'd recommend a complete rehaul because she would still need a party of 3 to do anything at higher lvl's or use the maximized Sneak attack on all of Coldkillers chars because if it weren't for expert dungeon runners like that the builders/DM's wouldn't have had to be so mean with dungeon settings.

I agree, a rehaul may be a better idea, but I didn't want to change her pre-level 7 stuff. Nothing wrong with being stuck in a party though, it makes it more fun if you're a rogue with others and they allow you to do your thing, I find. Her biggest problem is her AB isn't high enough to hit high AC opponents, and sneak attack dice being her only damage means she will be completely useless other then a bag of flesh versus undead (Which is most rogues, but some are better then others, enough strength and a single weapon can usually bypass the DR).

Still, it isn't horrible, you get some nice convo skills in both Diplomacy and Bluff, get some listen, get disable traps and picking locks. Though, I redid the skills so they're better. She should be able to use all types of wands, and most types of non-race/non-alignment/non-class items. I managed to squeeze in 20 tumble, and set traps as Mon says traps are so powerful (I rarely use them, since they are fairly pricey)

[Adjanah]

I guess I should warn you that the community on nwn2db can be vicious if your build is poor

So I noticed when I had the audacity to publish my last build. xD

Anywho, thanks muchly for all the explaining and building, very interesting stuff. I must confess I rarely put very much thought into the stats and skills of my characters, but it looks like I'll more or less have to if I want to be able to be any sort of help in a group on Dasaria.

Considering whether starting her over might be smartest, really. I'll not be getting to 20 anytime soon (notoriously slow leveller - mostly can't be bothered, unless with a fun group), so the lower level I can get her into some sort of usable shape, the better. If I do get her de-levelled, I don't suppose I'll be able to redo stats or first-level feats and skills as well? Mebbe I should just get someone to hold my loot for a bit while I make a complete reroll. Didn't take me that long to get to where I am after all, and if it'll make the character better...hum. Worth a consider.

...Would let me get rid of the surname as well, didn't realise you didn't have to have one... :>

[Adjanah]

Did a new from-the-top build, going from the idea of rerolling completely.

Got rid of two-weapon fighting, at least at the beginning - not only do I hit like a wet rag, I have a hard time hitting at all. Feel free to comment. I think this looks pretty solid, but I'm not convinced my skill-distribution is all it could be - I'd appreciate any advise there.
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=21125&version=1

[Peregrinus]

I have to say, with so little two weapon feats, it might be better to take other feats. Skill Focus: Bluff and Negotiator might be better choices, as together they give an addition +5 to Bluff, which will help with your feint skill (also fits your role as party face/the talker when in a group). When dealing with feint to get sneak attack, you need to more or less go all in for it it, similar to how HiPS oriented rogues go all in for stealth. As an example of going all in for a concept here's Skia's build. You'll notice most non-combat feats are oriented towards buffing Hide/MS (as is all her gear IG), also for the record, Skia's 15th level.

That's the main thing with rogues, you have to completely dedicate yourself to one style of getting sneak attack. There are three main routes: HiPS, Feint and Flanker. HiPS generally orient towards stealth skills (and generally are 19 Rogue/1 SD or 10 Rogue/10 Assassin). Feinters generally lean towards pure Rogue or maybe Rogue/Bard (as Bard get a few bonuses that you can orient towards Bluff). Finally Flankers tend to be Rogues with Swashbuckler, Fighter, NWN9 and/or Duelist (ironically, Skia, though she's a Stealther, has a class selection much closer to a flanker build). Stealth and Flankers generally go with Two Weapon Fighting, while Feinters have to go with a single weapon.

In short, you have to determine what combat style you wish to pursue, and then go after it.

I hope this helps. Also, if I have some random spare items that work for a rogue I'll try and get them to you.

[Mon-da-oth]

,.... and set traps as Mon says traps are so powerful (I rarely use them, since they are fairly pricey)

You pay for traps?

[Alterity]

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=21135&version=1

I made it have more bluff, I pushed feint down to later, because if you feint with only 1 attack per round you don't attack (You lose 1 attack per round from feint), took out disarm because I don't see it working well, took out two weapon feats in favour of Improved Combat expertise. I gave you Crippling strike, its a must on any sneak attacker (-2 strength is awesome, and it stacks), gave you improved evasion and defensive roll to make use of your high reflex (You never know when defensive roll may keep you alive that extra second to flee, or when taking only half damage from failed rolls can save you (Just think the 40-70 damage Earthquakes, dropping to 20-35 all the time)).

I also adjusted starting stats, taking 2 out of dex gives you 6 points, which I put 2 into Strength, 2 into Charisma, 2 into Constitution for 1 extra life a level, 1 extra damage a hit(Or two without a shield) and 1 to your bluff, but you lose 1 AC and 1 AB.

I also took three useless points out of tumble, lowered UMD to 10 since that lets you use wands, lowered Open lock to 10 since you already roll a natural 20 and i've never seen anything above 35 DC, and put some points in heal and appraise to save you money on healing kits.

[The Explorer]

That build has good potential in the right party Alt but IMO Pere's way of recommending rather than building for new players is better.

[Alterity]

Sure Exp, but I'm lazy and its easier and faster for me to throw together a build then to write. It also helps me come up with ideas better when I make rather then write about it.

[stoned-raider]

Don't take feint before level 8 (that's when you get your second attack). If you get it before level 8 and use it it will do ... yup, nothing at all (Tested and tried by me, arrgh). Once you got your second attack it's a great feat though, especially if you have other rogues in your party, as everyone gets free sneak-attacks against the feinted opponent in that round. And just like Peregrinus pointed out, also try getting all the other feats that grant you a bonus in bluff, like skill-focus and negotiator.

[Aglet Blacksoul]

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=21135&version=1

I also took three useless points out of tumble, lowered UMD to 10 since that lets you use wands, lowered Open lock to 10 since you already roll a natural 20 and i've never seen anything above 35 DC, and put some points in heal and appraise to save you money on healing kits.

Do you actually "take 20" on this server? I think you did in non-combat situations in NWN 1, but I was playing with a rouge in my party the other day and he was telling me that you do not here.

[Methos]

I had a char with only 1 lvl of rogue and i was getting pure 20 always for open locks.Atleast this I remember for sure in the goblin cave.

[Adjanah]

Thanks so much for all the input folks, it's really really appreciated. I'm learning alot from all this.
And good point about saving Feint for lvl8. I kinda liked the sound of disarm though...also for RP purposes. Why no Disarm, Altie?

I'd really like to keep Dex as high as possible as well...I like the extra AC and BA, and she's also meant to be nimbler than Nimble McFlexible, three-year champion of the National Limbo League.

Mashed together a new build using your comments and Altie's build as a basis.
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=21209&version=1
I take it from Altie's build that:
- Anything above 10 in Open Locks is a waste?
- Anything above 20 in Tumble is a waste?

Also, a note: I don't have any of the expansions, so I can only use stuff from the original game. Currently trying to hunt down the expansions, but they seem rather rare.

[The Explorer]

she's also meant to be nimbler than Nimble McFlexible, three-year champion of the National Limbo League.basis.

Thats just naughty... I approve

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=21209&version=1
I take it from Altie's build that:
- Anything above 10 in Open Locks is a waste?
- Anything above 20 in Tumble is a waste?

You learn well grasshopper.

Internet has been to crap to game here most of the week so I've had an over abundance of martial arts films

[Alterity]

Do you actually "take 20" on this server? I think you did in non-combat situations in NWN 1, but I was playing with a rouge in my party the other day and he was telling me that you do not here.

Heal and open lock take 20 out of combat, and how many people open locks while in combat? If you're stealthed near enemies you still take 20.

And good point about saving Feint for lvl8. I kinda liked the sound of disarm though...also for RP purposes. Why no Disarm, Altie?

Thats why I shoved Feint to the level 9 slot, I took out disarm because:

(http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Disarm) The character can perform a disarm maneuver that does no damage, provokes an attack of opportunity, but potentially renders the target unarmed. The attempt is resolved using an opposed roll.
The attacker's disarm roll is:
(attacker's AB corresponding to his highest AB attack) + 4*(attacker's size modifier) + 4*(size of attacker's weapon) +1D20
The defender's roll is:
(defender's AB corresponding to his highest AB attack) + 4*(defender's size modifier) + 4*(size of defender's weapon) +1D20
If the attacker meets or beats the defender's roll, the defender's main hand weapon is disarmed.

Now then, you are a human, so medium sized, with a rapier(Or another medium weapon for this example). At level 10 you have 7 BAB, with 22 Dex thats +6, and a +2 weapon say. Thats an AB of 15 at level 10. So your roll is 15+4+4+1d20 to an average of 36. So against a rogue very similar it comes down to dice luck, against a mage you'll usually win(Not that you'd be disarming mages often) against a fighter you'll usually lose. (A level 10 fighter with a sword and shield would have a average roll of 39(assuming they have 22 strength and a +2 weapon as well), which will mean they usually win. A level 10 barbarian with a greataxe +2 and 26 strength would have a average roll of 45.

So I guess against most NPCs it'll work nicely, as most only have +1 gear and not maxed strength, and are lower level then you.

[Methos]

I have to say improved disarm gets number 1 skill from me.For those that know the module Trial and terror(I use it to test chars and builds instead of the sites)I emulated my char then made it all the way to 30 and try that first mob.I wanted to try death arrow and see the saves high lvl mobs have against it.Well for one he spots me with 57 hide and 47 move silently(normal skill+camouflage)so I didn't get a free relaxed shot to him,now what made me say disarm fricking rocks it's that he stole my bow during the skill casting.I was weaponless and got my arse kicked.So I have to say Improved Disarm can make a huge difference in melee fights and i'm pretty sure the guy with a dagger beats the weaponless guy.

Edit at Alt:how in the nine hell does a lvl 10 fighter get 22 str and a lvl 10 barb 26.kinda high.Most times comes to luck or dice throw so if a 1 can roll you out probably you'll roll 1 next round.But you should test it more lvl 20 rogue vs lvl 20 fighter.Maybe you'll only win less than 50% of the fights but it's way more than with any skill if you compare the number of attacks a fighter has in a round