Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:28 am

I play, almost exclusively, a svirf.

If the DMs decide to put in level restrictions for ECL classes, I'll just hope for a chance to reroll once the decision is in place.

If there is no cap on ECL, I'll be the first to admit the level 20 ECL race builds will be more powerful than that of the "normal" races.

Also, I feel that my svirf is not a complete character untill I receive 20 epic levels over everybody else. I'd appreciate a DM contacting me immediately as to when I should log on to have this issue promptly addressed. After all, I am putting my precious time into playing on your server.

Oh. I also lost my DC 56 vorpal sword.

k9burn · Post by **k9burn** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:01 am

Just cap the xp at 190,000. Thats fair for everyone.

There is no bias.

Grayle · Post by **Grayle** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:07 am

k9burn wrote:Just cap the xp at 190,000. Thats fair for everyone.

Agreed.

gnatrc · Post by **gnatrc** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:03 am

k9burn wrote:Just cap the xp at 190,000. Thats fair for everyone.

It is simple, but it is not really fair/balanced. To most classes the last few levels add the most to the character in terms of class abilities. Then there is the debate over whether the loss of hit points, BAB, and ability to use items of a level that they can no longer reach due to the cap is a reasonable offset to the racial advantages.

The ECL races do have advantages that the ECL system does not handle well (or at all) in a persistent mutli-player world. I am at a loss myself for an effective way to balance the ECL racial advantages in a PW. The group I am working with locally is banning ECL races until they agree on a system to balance them for a PW. Seems a little harsh to me, but it is the only solution I have seen so far that maintains balance.

This thread had many good points arguing the ECL issues and I passed them on to my local group. Thanks to all of you for sharing:).

-gnat

broncoblitz · Post by **broncoblitz** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:25 am

How is it not balanced? No really tell me how it isn't balanced.

The level cap is 20.
Therefore no character should be able to reach higher than 20.

We all agree upon that.

Where the people wanting the ECL races to reach 20 seem to be getting lost is that there is already levels that they have besides the numbers besides the classes they have taken.

Your level 1 Tiefling fighter is really a 1 Tiefling/1 Fighter.

For that 1 level you are getting several free feats, and an extra +2 in stat points.

Having fewer class levels IS the balancing factor.

Since xp gain is effectively meaningless given the time factors in effect on the server (ie an infinite amount of time to gain unlimited xp) The only way to limit the power within a relative balance is to cap xp accumulation. If everyone is able to gain the same the same amount of xp it is equal. Even with that limit some of the ECL races will be exceedingly powerful. However a cap to xp is unequivically fair. No one is able to "learn" more than anyone else.

Does that mean you may miss some class abilities at the high end with some races? Of course, but as has always been the case in DND there are choices that you have to make with your character. You cannot have everything all of the time.

The abilities of your race may in some ways far exceed what you may recieve from the last 1,2 or 3 levels of your chosen classes.

Ideally the engine would display your level correctly based upon your ECL plus class level. If it did that and people saw that it added up to 20 I don't think there would be as much of an issue. So when you are only reach level 18 with your drow just remember, there really should be Drow (2) listed under your classes in addition to whatever else you have taken and then it all adds up. And everything IS equal.

Grahat'mah · Post by **Grahat'mah** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:26 am

Something I would really like to see should you all end up cappin the exp, thus not allowing ECL races to reach level 20, would be an option to have a DM shift all of your items and exp to a new character of a standard race..

I, for one, do not like the idea of (see above post) not being able to use the same equipment as the other high level characters, or the last few spells that I should be getting.

BeyondRedemption · Post by **BeyondRedemption** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:27 am

That's the most compelling argument I've seen regarding the ECLs. Thanks BB.

gnatrc · Post by **gnatrc** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:48 am

broncoblitz wrote:How is it not balanced? No really tell me how it isn't balanced.

Ideally the engine would display your level correctly based upon your ECL plus class level. If it did that and people saw that it added up to 20 I don't think there would be as much of an issue. So when you are only reach level 18 with your drow just remember, there really should be Drow (2) listed under your classes in addition to whatever else you have taken and then it all adds up. And everything IS equal.

I like your arguement and I just sent a message off to our local script guru. In short I asked him if he could make the ECL race penalty an addition to the class level for overall level calculation in game. So a level 18 drow wizard would be considered a level 20 character for item usage determination.

That leads to the answer on how it is NOT balanced:). In our testing in all but very low magic environments, higher level items available to non-ECL races imbalanced the NWN2 combat mechanics in favor of the non-ECL races. My current local group is somewhere in the medium magic environment level and it is putting the ECL2-3 races at a disadvantage in our testing. It really depends on the number and variety of items in the 18-20 level range to make a balance call for any particular environment.

As an aside, we are finding that the assay resistance spell is doing to spell resistance what true seeing does to stealth. Basically, it is looking like a means to bypass any spell resistance levels achievable by player characters. I don't want to derail this thread, but if anyone has any thoughts on assay resistance please start a new thread:).

-gnat

Mensha Khaine · Post by **Mensha Khaine** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:34 am

Looking at this from an RP point of view, the subraces have reasons for them being stronger, faster, etc. However they should not be the majority on the server.

Why not make the subraces application only?

ChikenKannon · Post by **ChikenKannon** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:41 am

It's a good idea to make it application only. But the thing is, do we really want to heap more work on the DMs? And not only will it be more work but it won't stop being created, so either the DMs spend their time sifting through applications from players. OR. Applications will take a long time.

obsoletenihilist · Post by **obsoletenihilist** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:45 am

So disable them for now, and then make them application only after Beta ends and the Admin and DM's can keep up with the work load.

UltimaBoB · Post by **UltimaBoB** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:50 am

I don't like application only either - too subjective and still leads to th emost powerful guys on the server being deep gnomes and drow which IMO isn't right.

OTOH capping their xp at 190k will leave subraces weaker than non-ecls at 20 - again no doubt.

I disagree that items cannot be used to balance them - if your items ended up making non-ecls too much stronger then just tone down the items.

muletang · Post by **muletang** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:53 am

Applications bring their own problems though - whats the criteria? If you don't get to play the deep gnome you want you are going to want to know why you couldn't and blahblah could. You RP at least as well as him...don't you? You've been here longer. I asked first! and then there are 50 posts on the boards calling DMs unfair, the process a bunch of arse, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.......etc
If there are only a few slots open for it - to keep the numbers down, at what point does a non played drow get removed so that another can come in? ie: a drow character such as Kell, brought a lot to Das1 (and was active the whole time) but say went on the quiet for a couple of months whilst they developed another character, should Kell then be removed so some body else can play a drow?

The idea is good, but I don't think applications could really work in practice.

'Cap 'em, cap 'em all!'

UltimaBoB · Post by **UltimaBoB** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:38 am

Can scripting mod the races?

Greater penalties on sun blindness might balance races out nicely (have to handle assimar and tiefling some other way mind you). But really zing svirf in the sun and the drow and deep dwarves a bit less etc... Make under dark races really own in the dark, but weak in the sun.

You could also make some of their abilities not work above ground like SR or Deep Gnomes +4 ac etc...

Zephis · Post by **Zephis** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:13 am

Just a thought.. I like the idea of capping the race but treating it as a race "level" How about tossing in that missing HP and Bab. Say the medium path for both?
So 1d6/d8 and +1 to saves which removes the problem of being a few HP short while leaving them their class features ?