Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?

[Greensleeves]

Can you please give an example of what difference the level cap will create in relation to the gameplay other than attempting to balance racial abilities?

The problem is that a level cap doesn't balance racial abilities, it is an incomplete solution. It would possibly be an adequate balance descision if the dark races were only playing melee classes, but 3 spellcaster levels are worth far more than any of the racial bonuses.

[broncoblitz]

The appropriate way to limit ECL racial power, is to snip away some of the racial bonuses.

The appropriate way to limit ECL racial population, is to require an application to play one.

You seem to be contradicting yourself with the first statement. An xp cap snips away some of the racial bonuses by not allowing ECL races to have more levels than the other races.

What people also seem to be missing is that setting an xp cap is probably by far the easiest and most consistent method for the dm's to maintain the balance. Instead of spending dozens of man hours sifting through applications, keeping track of those who appllied, booting those who havent complied, dealing with dozens of pm's asking why they haven't gotten a response yet. They can spend however long it would take to script an xp cap, and then spend all the rest of those hours doing what they actually want to do. Like building new areas, DM'ing events and playing with the great people on the server.

[Wyvern]

It would possibly be an adequate balance descision if the dark races were only playing melee classes, but 3 spellcaster levels are worth far more than any of the racial bonuses.

How is that an issue, if it makes them slightly less desirable, thereby reducing the numbers of them that exist, in a campaign setting which is largely Human-oriented?

Besides, if an XP cap was put in place, in all likelihood it would be capped at 190,000, which would mean a level 19 limit for Aasimar and Tiefling, and 18 for Drow and so on. No spell levels would be lost, only number of spells per day. This is not the decision that has been made however.

[Michael]

They do receive bonuses in certain statistics that will increase their number of spells, though. I still say it is akin to expecting a half orc bard to be as powerfull as a human (not to mention aasimar).

One can easily argue that their spell resistance makes it more difficult for such races to channel magical energies.

In the end, this looks to be beyond the ken of us, mortals - DM decision will settle it real fast

Edit: Discussion heating up. Two replies before I managed to think this through and type in

[Greensleeves]

What people also seem to be missing is that setting an xp cap is probably by far the easiest and most consistent method for the dm's to maintain the balance. Instead of spending dozens of man hours sifting through applications, keeping track of those who appllied, booting those who havent complied, dealing with dozens of pm's asking why they haven't gotten a response yet. They can spend however long it would take to script an xp cap, and then spend all the rest of those hours doing what they actually want to do. Like building new areas, DM'ing events and playing with the great people on the server.

This is absoloutely true, the DM's time is better spent on the fun stuff. There are plenty of ways to balance the ECL races that are just as easy as a level cap and substantially more correct.

Btw, I have no intention of playing any of the dark races. I just think a level cap is extremely unfair to the folks who are already playing them in good faith.

[Wyvern]

As far a I am concerned, they are playing them in the knowledge that a decision is still outstanding on them. I even play them myself and I will accept any decision that is taken with regards to them. We wont make allowances for the fact that people have already rolled with an ECL race before this decision was taken.

[Greensleeves]

It would possibly be an adequate balance descision if the dark races were only playing melee classes, but 3 spellcaster levels are worth far more than any of the racial bonuses.

How is that an issue, if it makes them slightly less desirable, thereby reducing the numbers of them that exist, in a campaign setting which is largely Human-oriented?

The only issue I have with it is that from a balance standpoint, it seems like the wrong cure for the correct symptom

Besides, if an XP cap was put in place, in all likelihood it would be capped at 190,000, which would mean a level 19 limit for Aasimar and Tiefling, and 18 for Drow and so on. No spell levels would be lost, only number of spells per day. This is not the decision that has been made however.

This would generally have the worst effect on multi-classed and prestige-classed characters.

[Wyvern]

I still don't see the problem. I need specifics. What are the problems? Honestly, I am listening, I am just not hearing.

[Stormknife]

You keep saying that, but you have yet to provide a concrete example of what you're talking about other than "It's not fair".

The ONLY situation I can think of where an ECL race doesn't get access to all spell levels is a deep gnome sorcerer. Otherwise, as has been stated, you're only losing out on spells per day...and even in that case, the bonuses to casting stats three of the RCL races have (tiefling, aasimar, drow) balance out at least one level's worth of spells per day due to the extra bonus spells you get.

Edit: For clarity.

[broncoblitz]

This thread has been active since before the server was live. So the discussion has been here whether people read it or not.

Kind of like the server rules, not being aware of an ongoing discussion about a topic shouldn't prevent its decisions from being put into effect.

[Wyvern]

Just for the record, I am trying to force a decision from the DM staff asap because I do believe it is time one was made.

[Greensleeves]

I still don't see the problem. I need specifics. What are the problems? Honestly, I am listening, I am just not hearing.

As simply as it can be put, I'd say that it's not fair (or appropriate from an ingame standpoint) to make the dark races substantially less powerful than other races, for the sole purpose of limiting their numbers.

[Wyvern]

That's just it. They wont be substantially less anything. Drow for example, will still have a permanent, what, 29 SR? They get +2 strength and +2 charisma but lose 1 point at 20th? They lose a handful of spells as a caster or about 2 BAB as a melee?

How do they become substantially less powerful by only being able to reach level 18? What am I missing?

[Michael]

I still don't see the problem. I need specifics. What are the problems? Honestly, I am listening, I am just not hearing.

As simply as it can be put, I'd say that it's not fair (or appropriate from an ingame standpoint) to make the dark races substantially less powerful than other races, for the sole purpose of limiting their numbers.

In the same way I could say that the level cap would be unfair for my svirf because (he is melee) he will not receive the full level 20 BAB.

As it's been mentioned, the statistical bonuses for ECL classes diminish the penalty for casters - they do not override them, and should, by no means, do so. BAB and spells per level aside, the ECL classes do receive other bonuses (racial abilities) - equating BAB or spells per day to that of, say, a human would be completely disadvantegous of the humans.

Only a weird combinations would result in substantially less powerful characters... in the same way a half orc bard would not be able to match a human bard in spellcasting.

Edit:

Taking a back seat since it seems I'm just repeating others' words - and there I thought I had decent WPM count

P.S. Drow also receive the darkness spell as a racial ability - properly used it can be very, very powerfull.

[Greensleeves]

That's just it. They wont be substantially less anything. Drow for example, will still have a permanent, what, 29 SR? They get +2 strength and +2 charisma but lose 1 point at 20th? They lose a handful of spells as a caster or about 2 BAB as a melee?

How do they become substantially less powerful by only being able to reach level 18? What am I missing?

Lol, I thought I'd just stick up for a group folks that I though were getting a shafted a bit, I suppose I'll keep playing along until they get online and defend themselves.



For a pure fighter, a level cap is no big deal, easy enough.

For a spellcaster though, the loss of 2 or 3 lvl 9 and 8 spells in no way balances with a few stat points, or even spell resistance which can be gained just as easily with a lvl 4 spell.

Classes that continue to gain abilities as they level will feel a pretty strong hit as well, monks, prestige classes, etc.

P.S. Drow also receive the darkness spell as a racial ability - properly used it can be very, very powerfull.

The darkness spell is broken, when it is fixed this should be a non-issue.