Let's Talk Itemization

[Peregrinus]

(As a note, for those of you to lazy or who don't want to read through the logic behind this and wish to avoid the math and statistics inherent in talking game balance, there's a TL:DR summery at the bottom you can skip to...)

Having been back on Dasaria for over a year now, and having a long, long tradition of looking at the mechanics of DnD through NWN1/2, I've been becoming more and more bothered by an imbalance I see on Dasaria that feels to undercut one of the major ideas of the server: being a place where a simple man with a sword can change the world.

Now, this is not because people ignore you, but because being the simple warrior is not just exceedingly difficult in NWN2, especially on Dasaria, but almost outright punished. Meanwhile casters of all stripes are clearly superior in every circumstance. They easily generate higher ACs than meleeists, end up with significant miss chance, can become immune to critical hits and sneak attack, and overall are more powerful.

Now, most of this is inherent to the DnD system, which is built on the idea of linear fighters/quadratic wizards. But many of the most powerful spells from PnP DnD are not present in NWN2, and so they have their power level reduced somewhat. They do gain some powerful spells that don't exist in tabletop (IGMS, Shadow Shield) but they pale in comparison to what is lost (Wish... nuff said).

All that said, Dasaria likely would be close to balanced between casters and non-casters in a Pen and Paper environment. +3 armor and weapons being the common power level would match well against the base defensive spells, if they worked like they do in PnP.

But they don't.

NWN2 does stacking differently than tabletop, and this difference in stacking is where I think, combined with itemization, that causes non-casters to fall so far behind and below casters.

Take, for instance, a common longsword. A meleeist would get a +1d4 energy enchantment on it, and make it +3. If they are lucky and find a +4 Longsword and add an energy enchantment to it, they've hit the topmost weapon they can get in Dasaria. Meanwhile a caster can take a base longsword, get two energy enchantments on it (for +2d4 damage) and then proceed to make it a +5 weapon and, if an arcane caster, make it Keen too.

So, without strength modifiers, the non-caster has a longsword that deals 1d8+1d4+4 damage (averaging 11 per hit) while the caster has one that deals 1d8+2d4+5 damage (averaging 14.5 damage per hit). Now, granted, the Fighter with a longsword can generally bring that up via having a slightly higher strength (and it will be only slightly higher, more on that in a minute) and Weapon Spec feats, so that the on-hit damage becomes slightly better, but only slightly, better.

As to physical stats, with items capping at +3 for physical stats, this means that casters generally will get better bonuses using Bull Str. Assuming a fighter who starts with 16 Str, puts all points into it for 21 and then a +3 item gets them a 24 Str, or a +7 modifier. A melee focused caster can push it to similar values, while even a more balanced character (like Phelan), generates a 20 Str regularly (16 base + 4 from Bull's Str). Meanwhile, where that Str focused fight has to short his other physical stats, Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance grant them significant bonuses to casters.

Now, so far these make casters and non-casters about on-par. But bear in mind, we're talking on-par in the playground of the non-casters. Once you add actually offensive spellcasting into it, it hardly matters that a caster can swing a sword only slightly less well than a fighter when they can stop swinging and then unload hundreds of points of damage with a single spell to a horde of enemies.

Now, let's touch on the real ridiculous one: Armor Class. Dasaria would be nearly perfectly balance in Armor Class IF Armor Class stacking worked per PnP rules. But NWN2 doesn't work to PnP rules when it comes to AC, having more categories. Where in PnP Fullplate +3 adds 11 AC and is strictly better than any spell for AC that a caster can cast, in NWN2 because of the way stacking works (Spell AC stacking with the base AC from Armor, but not the enchantments), it allows casters to take advantage of the Armors AND the spells at the same time, while non-casters have to made due with just the enchantments on the armor.

Now, while it is possible to push a non-caster into AC parity with a caster using a combination of feats and PrCs, this means they also sacrifice being "just a man". The primary PrC used to bring non-casters up to par with casters is Dragon Disciple. Using this class locks folks into a specific RP, requires taking a level in a spellcasting class, and thereby changes the nature of the character from a simple warrior to a half-dragon...

Anyway, to go over how things stack up, I'm going to touch on non-caster vs arcanist, as I'm most familiar with that spell list, the divine lists, especially the cleric ones, are even more powerful.

Armor Class by Type:
Armor - Both can wear base armor, so a wash.
Armor Enchantment - Non-caster limited to +3, Arcanists get +6 from Improved Mage Armor.
Shield - Both can wear a shield, again a wash.
Shield Enchantment - +3 on the shield, arcanists get +4 from the Shield Spell
Natural Armor - +3 (if they're lucky), +2 most likely; +5 from Spiderskin or Shadowshield
Deflection - +2/+3 from Ring/Cloak of Protection, arcanists have no spells that grant deflection AC, so a wash.
Dodge - +2 from Boots and points in the tumble skill, a wash.

Overall the arcanist is edging out the non-caster in AC by 6 points of AC just on itemization alone. Feats are generally a wash, and tend to favor arcanists more, as the penalties for using, say, Improved Combat Expertise don't hinder an arcanists (who can cast spells against touch AC or requiring no attack roll) significantly less than a non-caster.

This gap is non-trivial, as it's the difference between a 34 and a 40 AC. When you add in some of the more esoteric AC buffs (like Mirror Image), Arcanists pull even further ahead (though in a less permanent capacity).

So what can be done to help alleviate this gap without increasing the power of casters? Quite simply: put in armor and shields that have +5 enchantment modifiers. Perhaps also introduce ability score items that grant +4 to physical stats as well. Would this allow casters to perhaps vary their spell lists somewhat? Yes, but at spell levels which are less powerful, 1st-3rd level spells aren't the game changers, but are rather pretty well balanced and small scale spells. Also, it likely wouldn't change their loadouts, as there is still benefit to using their base spells over getting items. Improved Mage Armor is still (slightly) better than a +5 armor, and Shield has secondary benefits that are useful (immunity to magic missiles).

Those two are easy to handle, but then what of the other major gaps: Nat AC and Deflection. While I didn't list it, Clerics get a spell that grants them up to a +5 deflection modifier, but they are balanced out in that they (unless they have one domain) don't have a native way of getting Natural Armor. So if you put in +5 Rings of Deflection and +5 Amulets of Natural Armor, you do increase the strength of casters. Not dramatically, but a little, so you may be more adverse to it.

Of course, there is another option, and that is to nerf the spells casters have to bring their bonuses into line with those granted by items. This is indeed plausible, but I think would involved more work to implement (having to rescript a dozen or so spells as opposed to altering the loot tables) and would also feel like punishing the casters for playing to their strengths, instead of strengthening those who are weak.

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Another area of great imbalance between Casters and Non-Casters is their alternative protections. Non-casters have next to no alternative ways to avoid damage, depending only on their HP pools. This makes them highly depending on healing items, which makes them end up spending a lot more level by level than casters. Meanwhile casters use their spells to avoid damage outright, either by DR or by miss chance, these come from a renewable resource that costs the casters nothing, while enabling them to tank much more damage.

Now, in PnP spells like stoneskin have significant material costs. Stoneskin in particular costs 250 GP worth of materials PER CAST. There is no equivalent to Greater Stoneskin and Premonition in PnP, for the record, but those two spells account for much of the upper level survivability of casters. Displacement is another arcane spell that contributes significantly to the survival of casters, though it has no material component cost in PnP. Non-casters have no ways to get DR or Miss Chance natively (points in UMD and buying wands from a caster notwithstanding). Nor should they, after all, the reason casters have them is they have a fraction of the HP a non-caster does. A 10th level fighter has 100 HP before Con, while a 10th level Wizard has 40. Clerics, of course, have good HP pools and access to these spells.

So, what can be done? Honestly, to keep a medium magic world feel, it may be necessary to put one the PnP material component cost for these spells... what I'd suggest is that it be 250 GP for Stoneskin (based on PnP), 500 for Greater Stoneskin and 750 for Premonition. Spells that give equivalent DR to each should have a similar cost. IE, Shadow Shield, which grants DR 10/Adamantine should have a 250 GP cost associated with it.

Yes, this is more or less a nerf to casters, as it gives them a resource cost to use their spells, but the other option, but these spells are really that powerful. Stoneskin functionally gives the caster +100 HP. Premonition effectively gives them +200. Yes, its not exactly the same as HP, since you can overwhelm the spells or bypass them, but the effect feels great enough to me to warrant a cost greater than a simple spell slot.

As an aside, as crafters know, Wands of Stoneskin cost more than other level 4 wands to craft. This is because the base cost of the wand is based on the SRD, where, because stoneskin costs 250 GP per casting, that cost much be paid when casting the spell to make the wand. 250 * # of charges on the wand adds up quickly. For some reason while they removed the cost of casting stoneskin as a spell, did not realize it would change the base cost of the wand...

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For those of you who don't want the detailed breakdown, this is the summery, also known as TL;DR:

So, in conclusion, I think that adding in +5 Weapons/Armor/Shields into the Loot Pool would greatly help the survivability and viability of non-caster/non-powerbuilds at higher levels. Given the prevalence of spells that grant equal (and better) bonuses, I do not think such enchantments would change the overall feel of Dasaria from a medium magic world (I would argue it would make the world feel MORE like a medium magic one). Other AC items could be uptuned as well, though perhaps more carefully, and some sort of cost on DR spells should be added to help balance the costs of being a caster vs being a non-caster.

Do others have thoughts or opinions on this? If so, how would people change itemization to help non-casters out while not boosting casters even further ahead?

[Karma]

As a player who plays a lot of non casters. I am very in favor of this concept. Now. I have played on a hell of a lot of servers in my time, and this always seems to be an issue or point of discussion on servers where they want to have a medium magic world. In my experience non-casters may not be necessarily weaker then casters but they are at much more of a disadvantage then them. Pere already listed all the ways in which they are. I feel that it would be beneficial to the server to see a change like this. I believe it would make it feel more balanced, and a little less hard on those who don't happen to be blessed with the gifts of Arcane or Divine.. yes its a Hardcore world, but we want to have fun right?

My biggest problem has always been how expensive it is to play a Melee, or non-caster. All the healing stuff you have to get much more of, and it tends to then limit what kind of gear you can get, unless you're really grindy grindy. Whereas a caster can use spells and hoard money and they don't even wear fancy armor! *shakes fist*

While I know that some builds you makes are for a party, and some people powerbuild, the items making such a difference as they do makes it night impossible for a non caster to have any solo survivability in most situations. And I'm not talking about soloing areas. I'm talking about getting from point A to point B without dying horrifically. All in all though. I like this idea, We should try and see it done.

[Arkalezth]

I'll start by saying that my main character is a non-caster warrior type and that I'm usually not too worried about class balance. I'm playing this character because I like it, and if I was jealous of the wizard guy playing next to me, I'd be playing a wizard instead. Also, the game isn't balanced and it never will. I prefer to accept that fact that trying to "overbalance" (not meaning this thread in particular; I'm just generalising).

Now, this has been discussed many times, and while I generall prefer low magic (call it RP reasons), as Pere said, it's been proved that +1 every 4 levels is the most balanced approach. It's far from perfect, but still more balanced than what Dasaria has now. That'd be +5 at level 20 on most items. About items that increase stats, I suppose +4 would be okay, though keeping it as an odd number would be more consistent with how most characters are built nowadays. You could argue that that would make spells like Bull's Strength obsolete... Well, maybe (though you can always use a different item), but it's still more balanced.

Check the notes on this build for a comparison between a fighter and a cleric in low magic (it's level 30, but the principle it's the same): http://nwn2db.com/build/?96740

That said, how realistic is this? I suppose it could imply an entire (or at least significant) revamp of the loot system. Even if we all agreed on this, could it be done in practice?

PS: Regarding wands.... I'm finding out that they're pretty much necessary for non-casters, which makes me sad. RP-wise, I can imagine wands making sense for some characters, even some non-casters, but I don't like seeing every fighter out there with Stoneskin and Mirror Image on. I'm not suggesting to do anything about those kinds of items, as I suppose they're a necessary evil (and I'll probably start using them soon too), but I'm not really a fan of them. The +5 items would probably reduce the wand (ab)use somewhat, though.

[Karma]

PS: Regarding wands.... I'm finding out that they're pretty much necessary for non-casters, which makes me sad. RP-wise, I can imagine wands making sense for some characters, even some non-casters, but I don't like seeing every fighter out there with Stoneskin and Mirror Image on. I'm not suggesting to do anything about those kinds of items, as I suppose they're a necessary evil (and I'll probably start using them soon too), but I'm not really a fan of them. The +5 items would probably reduce the wand (ab)use somewhat, though.

I very much agree with this. Not to mention they cost a fortune, and non-casters have a very increased demand for healing supplies, this is extremely difficult to manage

[Alterity]

I like the idea of +5 weapons/armours and +4 physical attribute items (not mental I suppose, since that'd buff casters). I have quite a few non-casters, and they would get a big helping hand out of being able to wear 'better' gear. Rogues especially would benefit, since they tend to wear stealth gear which further cuts down their AC; to be able to wear +5 armour. Also consider an added benefit; if you can track down a +5 sword and +5 armour, and +4 phys stat items, a lot of players will cut down on their buffing so that we can get adventuring faster!

I've never really found Dasaria any more expensive playing a caster, or non-caster, other than when I play clerics/favoured souls/spirit shamans, since even wizards need to buy healing supplies; but then - my arcanists don't usually have a tonn of buffs.

Which brings me to my more important point; I have to disagree with adding a cost to stoneskin and its derivatives. A lot of casters use those spells as their main form of defense, not having access to any other form of reliable spells. Look at Hyel for example, he does have any illusion spells; he would have to rely on Improved mage armour, shield, spiderskin as his main defensive buffs. It doesn't seem overly fair to those that don't have displacement and mirror image and all the other really powerful spells for defense to then be punished for using their main form of defense; nerf illusions if you want to hit defense spells, not the mainstay! Also note, a lot of casters memorize/cast extra stoneskins on allies, increaseing teamplay - which is a good thing.

[Alterity]

PS: Regarding wands.... I'm finding out that they're pretty much necessary for non-casters, which makes me sad. RP-wise, I can imagine wands making sense for some characters, even some non-casters, but I don't like seeing every fighter out there with Stoneskin and Mirror Image on. I'm not suggesting to do anything about those kinds of items, as I suppose they're a necessary evil (and I'll probably start using them soon too), but I'm not really a fan of them.

Odd, I've never found a need for a wand, Korangar, Methos, Aaronn, Cide, Loke, Vappa; none of them ever needed wands and they did fine. Renmara, Lumme didn't have any defensive magic and never required any wands either. But then, perhaps I'm just too cheap to purchase any

[ralfinader]

I agree with Pere about the +5 weaps armor and shields, and the +4 str/dex/con items, and believe it would benefit every character, melee or caster. It would make the melee and rogue types more durable, and also free up a spell slot or three for many a caster.

[Arkalezth]

I had missed the part about caster paying for their spells. I'm totally against that. I don't think it's fair to casters (besides, think of the investment for low level ones), and it's one of those things that can turn players off the PW.

Alt, I haven't used any wand yet, but I've often had to use, for instance, Protection from Evil charms in order to survive. I think this is simply an issue of many fights/quests/areas being made with a party in mind, but you can't always find a suitable one, not to mention one that covers all the basic types (i.e. you may be in a party, but lacking a wizard or a cleric type).

Speaking about charms, I would be extremely grateful if there was a way to make them stack on the inventory, or buy versions with more charges, or anything that makes them a bit less annoying to manage.

I mentioned odd stat items because most current characters (those without stat buffs at least) tend to finish their main attribute in an odd number, having a +3 item in mind. Those characters wouldn't gain anything from a +4 item as opposed to a +3 one (unless they're remade, of course). This is kind of powergaming, but I thought it was worth a mention.

[Alterity]

Alt, I haven't used any wand yet, but I've often had to use, for instance, Protection from Evil charms in order to survive. I think this is simply an issue of many fights/quests/areas being made with a party in mind, but you can't always find a suitable one, not to mention one that covers all the basic types (i.e. you may be in a party, but lacking a wizard or a cleric type).

Ahh, yes. Fair - the prot evil charms -are- practically mandatory against the spell casters when you're low level; their spells can easily cut through your crappy will save without them. Even with an allied cleric/wizard it can be hard to get the buff in a medium sized party, since they only have so many level 1 spells!

[Peregrinus]

As a note on the paying for spells: I'm only suggesting it for spells that have expensive material components per the SRD. This really only boils down to Stoneskin and the related spells and perhaps Improved Mage Armor, all other spells don't have them per normal DnD.

I will also admit, it's not something I personally like, but it would help balance the spending costs between casters and non-casters. Non-casters put the money to healing to repair HP damage, casters put the money to preventing HP damage.

It is also a lot harder to implement than the loot pool stuff, as it involves adding checks to the spell scripts. Not impossible, mind you, but involves more work.

On +4 Stat items. I'm a strong proponent of these as these are the same benefits given by the spells. Yes there are potions of these spells, but the duration of them makes them either cost prohibitive to keep them in stock due to the short duration (yet another gold sink for non-casters) or usable only as a "boss battle" buff, while the casters keep them running through entire dungeons. This seems silly to me, and especially hindering to folks. I understand the reasoning behind not putting in mental ones, as while you CAN cast the spells to grant the higher spell DCs, you can't gain the bonus spells per day from the higher ability score from the spells. While personally I don't find the difference in power that great (assuming a starting 18 in a stat, +5 from leveling to 23 the difference between +2 and +3 items is 1 level 4 spell and one level 7 spell per day), this also may be influenced by me primarily playing a sorcerer, where Spells Per Day are kinda... whatever.

I also wish to note that per the SRD stat buff items don't come in odd numbers. They start at +2, then go to +4, then +6, etc. Off stat buff items just make me itch because of this. This is done in PnP so that the item ALWAYS grants a benefit, regardless of the base score its put on (a +1 on a stat with a 16 is meaningless, as we all know). Personally, if I were to implement this, I would change ALL +1 stat items to +2 and all +3 stat items to +4, and remove the odd number ones from the loot pool... but that's just me being a PnP purist.

[Arkalezth]

I spend a lot of money on healing items, but I wouldn't feel better about it by making casters pay for other things. Besides, those spells you mention are for arcanes, who have neither healing spells nor heal as a class skill, so they would be paying for everything in the end (even though they would be taking less damage). In short, I don't believe in "%$*&#(* the neighbour" as a way to solve my own problems.

Also, what about party buffs? Would the wizard buff me if I was broke? Would we have to bring up the banter menu and calculate the cost every time a party member is buffed?

Regarding SRD and PnP, I don't care at all about what those say. This is NWN2, and things that work well in PnP may work differently here.

[Jain Zar]

Well, +5 weapons/armours/shields and +4 stats items will free up some spells slots in for example all those powerful cleric-ish builds since they don't need to cast greater magic weapon / magic vestment anymore. And they can use them for other.
Next to that indeed the bonus spells with a +4 item for wisdom.

Not bad... for the caster builds... either.


Also when this is approved, lots of folks may wanna rebuild, since their current builds may be calculated with +3 gear
We may have a rush on the the lowbies?

[triangles]

I will be the apologist who doesn't mind the way things are right now.

[Peregrinus]

Well, +5 weapons/armours/shields and +4 stats items will free up some spells slots in for example all those powerful cleric-ish builds since they don't need to cast greater magic weapon / magic vestment anymore. And they can use them for other.
Next to that indeed the bonus spells with a +4 item for wisdom.

Not bad... for the caster builds... either.

I'm honestly not so sure about that. It still is more beneficial to the caster to prepare their own Greater Magic Weapon than get a +5 weapon, as, technically, they can get a more powerful weapon doing to. +5 takes up one of the two permanent enchantment slots on a weapon, meaning it can only be a +5 Flaming weapon (+1d4) whereas a caster with GMW can not use that slot for the +5 and instead get two energy types. As most casters don't have feats that add flat damage and tend to have lower physical stats (though only by a little) this extra damage is more valuable to them than the extra spell slot (since it is only a 3rd level one).

Likewise the spells that add enchantment Shield and Armor bonuses. It allows them different itemization. For instance, because Phelan doesn't need to have a flat +X modifier on his armor he instead has armor that grants resistance to two different energy types. His shield isn't a good example though, as he has a Mithril Shield for the 0% spell failure chance, and mithril shields don't even take more enchantments to them so if I want ANY enchantment shield AC I have to cast the shield spell anyway.

Might to be benefitial-ish? Yeah, somewhat, kinda? It would be beneficial to those builds that presently don't go for full caster levels (Cleric/Warpriest, certain Eldritch Knight builds, Bards who don't get GMW). I think that concern is likely overblow, coming at it from a Gish perspective, I think I'd stick to my present spell loadout that includes all the spells that adding +5 weapons, shields armor and +4 physical ability score items would impact.

[Jain Zar]

Given the fact you can have such gear :p
Right now, among aaaall my characters, i have one single character with one single item that gives double damage...
No special armours among any of them, an barely to actually no wands

(pssshhh : i never found an enchanter, and when i did.. i didn't had the items for it)