Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?

[Greensleeves]

Yeah, I know...my last post was to Eowade. Should've hit the quote button.

I somehow suspect the main purpose it's going to end up being used for is to swap out choices made at level 20, though. It may as well read "Earn 2000/3000 experience, change some of your spells up" or "Change a feat."

This is what I was asking, and from my understanding of the proposed implementation, it won't be an issue.

[Stormknife]

Not sure how you got that understanding, and I'll be really surprised if NWN2 handles permanent de-levels any differently than NWN1 did...but if that's the case it's a little more palatable.

Although we're still going to be friggin's swimming in level 19 ECL races.

[A Wandering Monk]

Yeah, I know...my last post was to Eowade. Should've hit the quote button.

I somehow suspect the main purpose it's going to end up being used for is to swap out choices made at level 20, though. It may as well read "Earn 2000/3000 experience, change some of your spells up" or "Change a feat."

I'd wipe out the whole level (like 21000,22000,or 23000 xp) or at least a nice sized chunk like 10k xp so it isn't just a nice way to delevel and make character changes.

The only drawback I can see to this is that you could lose 2 or 3 levels real quick if someone wants to grief you.

[BeyondRedemption]

Which is why I favor the "make the racial difference cosmetic" so the motivation behind playing an ECL is roleplay and not übercharacter.

[ChikenKannon]

Eh. *puts on his rubber pants and wades into the thread*

Look everybody. I'm just going to take a moment of your time. Perhaps we need to think of this... mentally. Maybe we need to think of a downside that doesn't use the mechanics of the game. What if the guard more or less agreed that the people from Underdark (or wherever) weren't citizens of Cear and thus killing them isn't murder. Or they just don't give a rats *** what happens to them.

This doesn't "balance" the class but it will dissuade people from playing the class or at least playing them openly. Now couple this with some other sort of larger XP loss and you have a recipe for making powerbuilds.

Now this may create powerbuilds in order to fight the now-hostile citizens of Cear. But what happens when they kill someone who threatened to kill them? Will the guards or citizens believe the filthy Drow? No. Now he's an EoS.

Basically. The only way to survive is to make friends, and underdark isn't known for it's hospitality. The other way to survive is wear some sort of full mask. Long story short: Playing a underdark race is dangerous, more hostile to these damn monsters, this will minimize the numbers and leave only the strongest and most cunning (eh? Eh?), they have no rights.

Well. What do you think?

[Wyvern]

Dasaria has always had a "delevel but no relevel" policy. If anyone asks to be dropped a cetain number of levels to fix an issue with a character, I have done so. So losing a level for the sole purpose of changing your character's build will actually help me because I will get less requests for this.

EDIT - and that is how Drow were handled in the first campaign, Lok. There is a chance it will happen again, but it will be irrelevant of the balance discussion. It will either happen, or it wont.

[Stormknife]

I know about the delevel. I was talking about delevelling by 1000-5000 exp on a regular basis to adapt to the areas/plotlines you're dealing with at the moment.

Unless you're fine with ECLs getting a "Delevel and relevel. By the way, it's going to cost you maybe 1/4 the experience of everyone else to relevel from 19 to 20 to change your build".

Edit: 1st time for clarity, 2nd time to add this.

[Vahene]

There's a pretty easy solution.

Eliminate all races that have the level difference.

It really is that simple.

I'd like to play one myself but practically, I can't justify it.

-K

[A Wandering Monk]

The last question I have is how would being rez'd rather than respawned affect this? I know rd and rez are buggy now but when they are working, will this be an undesirable workaround for ecl races to avoid lvl loss?

[Maankin]

Just a quick question:
In the server vault, how many drow, aasimar, thiefelings and deep gnomes are there actually?
As far as I have seen, the largest part of the characters is already human.
It's true there are more drow then one should expect, but the number of thiefelings and aasimar doesn't seem to be higher then the number of wood or sun elves or even halfings.
There are also more half-orcs then could be expected in a "normal" city.
And I've only met 4 or 5 deep gnomes so far, and that's not without a reason.

I used to play on a NWN server where ECL subraces were implemented and they didn't overrun the server. Far from it.

This thread looks to me like a thread one could expect on a WoW, or other MMORPG forum. "Lets balance all classes and races, because PvP isn't fair", or the "let's nerf the druid and cleric" thread. This is dnd for god sake. Long live diversity! Don't say "Let all races be identical".

If, and only if, there are problems in the - probably far - future, then act on those problems at that time and if it seems nescessary at that moment implement the required changes.

I you want more humans, give them a discount at shops. Make human only shops. Let only them be able to buy houses. Make "secret" human only crafting receipts. Add parts to the city where a non-human can only enter when he's accompagnied by a human. Some quest givers might be xenophobic to specific subraces. Etc.

Eh. *puts on his rubber pants and wades into the thread*

Look everybody. I'm just going to take a moment of your time. Perhaps we need to think of this... mentally. Maybe we need to think of a downside that doesn't use the mechanics of the game. What if the guard more or less agreed that the people from Underdark (or wherever) weren't citizens of Cear and thus killing them isn't murder. Or they just don't give a rats *** what happens to them.

This doesn't "balance" the class but it will dissuade people from playing the class or at least playing them openly. Now couple this with some other sort of larger XP loss and you have a recipe for making powerbuilds.

Now this may create powerbuilds in order to fight the now-hostile citizens of Cear. But what happens when they kill someone who threatened to kill them? Will the guards or citizens believe the filthy Drow? No. Now he's an EoS.

Basically. The only way to survive is to make friends, and underdark isn't known for it's hospitality. The other way to survive is wear some sort of full mask. Long story short: Playing a underdark race is dangerous, more hostile to these damn monsters, this will minimize the numbers and leave only the strongest and most cunning (eh? Eh?), they have no rights.

Well. What do you think?

Seems a good idea. Except for the power build part.

[broncoblitz]

I'm still a strong proponent of capping experience gain at 190000.

Dasaria is a level 1-20 server. That is the vision the DM's have.

at 190,000 xp ALL characters have an effective level of 20.

If you are worried about missing out on levels in other classes, then you can play another race. However even as a spellcaster there are feats you can take to enhance your spellcasting.

DND and NWN2 are all about options in character creation. If you choose to take a more powerful race then the penalty should be that you cannot advance as far in base classes.

If there is a benefit, there also must be negative aspect.

If the Dm's suddenly said that only rock gnomes would be allowed to advance to level 20 and all other races could only reach level 17 I think there would be a bit of outrage.

There is nosuch thing a complete balance in DND thats not the way the system is designed. It is a system of relative balance. So things kind of sort of in a way balance out. Since the many subraces were given cool abilities it was decided that "Well, maybe they should be considered a higher level to even it out? That makes sense right?"

This isn't about nerfing the races (although some people want that) I personally love the diversity the sub-races allow. However the only real balance in this game is ultimately the level your character can achieve. So if Class Level + ECL = 20 for every single character then everyone is on as much of an even playing field as you can get in DnD. People with the subraces get their cool extra abilities and feats, people with no ecl get some cool class abilities and feats. And that, is a relatively balanced system.

[gnatrc]

Back to the top.

Looking over some of the subraces that shipped with the game, there are some severe numerical advantages to some of the subraces. These subraces are also a concern because they dont really have a place in the campaign. That is my main problem with them, and a sever populated with them as a majority is not right for the campaign.

There is a lot of good campaign background and storyline (more than any other PW I have seen) that Dasaria 2 is based on. If the ECL races or any other races don't fit the campaign storyline then ban them. Harsh from a variety playing viewpoint, but reasonable from a story telling viewpoint.

What I am worried about is say....every rogue being a tiefling. Really, if you are a numbers person, then why would anyone play anything other than a tiefling as a rogue or an aasimar sorcerer.

Lets not even talk about a deep gnome monk in the high levels.

I dont really worry about the standard races, as they are given bonuses but then they get a penalty in return.

From a number crunching viewpoint the ECL races do have advantages over the non-ECL races if they can all reach level 20 in a PW environment. Where most people compare them as a balance issue (at level 20) the advantages are mostly small (+5% to some dice rolls for stat bonuses, effectively cantrip like spells for a level 20, and minor resistances). The two glaring issues people point to are the SR (drow, deep gnome) and the deep gnome AC bonus. Yes they are valuable advantages, but how valuable....that is the debate:).

That said (agree or disagree), race has far less to do with the meta-gaming power build debate than class does. The debate varies a little on whether you consider PvM, PvP (one on one and party), or combination of both. Even with reasonable rest rules and the detuning of some spells, well played casters seem to do the best consitently in our local play test mod (medium magic environment with limited healing from items) regardless of race. Every now and then the bards seem to be able to pull off some amazing things as well. If I were to hazard a rough guess at the percentages of what makes up a power build I would say something like 60/30/10 "character class"/"player skill"/"character race". Maybe give a little more to "player skill" and take away from "character class" for some character archetypes (bard especially).

Just for grins, the melee archetype that is doing the best in our play testing is human or strongheart....go figure.

So does character race matter? Yes. Does it matter enough for me to care what character race another player is playing? No. Does it matter to me to care what class another player is playing? Yes, no matter whether they are friend or foe.

Bah, I ramble on too much....time to leave work and head home:).

-Gnat

[baby1111007]

Fact, in spite of what has been posted here, most choosing to play these subraces have little to no intention of actually RPing the subrace. When you have drow standing in broad daylight acting as if they own the place and confronting guards in what is to be a "human" dominated society, there is a problem. When you have people chosing to play these subraces because the stats build a "uber" character, but do not have any clue how to begin to fit said races into the existing campaign, there is a problem. When characters in a medieval type setting walk around bragging of a demonic bloodline...ummm there is a problem. Even our dear assimars with the celestial blood would be regarded as suspicious IN THIS campaign setting. When on any given night 1/4 of the population is drow or teifling, there is a problem.


So what we now are seeing is a whole lot of I dont want to lose my "uber" build character so I am going to come on these boards and whine about any proposed changes to get the campaign back on track and to make things more balanced. People, grow up.

I have said time and time again, the game is supposed to be fun for all. That is the reason why this issue came up in the first place. A question was posed as to how to maintain some balance to these ECL races so that fun can be had by all without having a server consisting of primarily deep gnomes and drow. Yes, it is about being fair. The arguments I am hearing are more about "me, my wants, my character" and less about the campaign as a whole.

The staff is trying very hard to accommodate those that want to play these races in the setting of the campaign. However , yes, I do think that you will have to give a little to get a little. Something will have to be implemented for those who do wish to stay more in tune with the campaign setting.

It was said before, and I will repeat it...it is for the players to adapt to the campaign setting, not for the staff to change their vision of Dasaria to accommodate players of races that are not central to the campaign. This is not a Forgotten Realms campaign. We have a richly detailed background and history that I have not seen on many other servers. Yet the staff chose to offer players the chance to play these other races instead of banning them all together. But with that choice may come some sacrifice. deal with it.

If you are against the level cap, come up with some viable solutions as an alternative instead of coming on these boards and defending your chosen race without bending at all. The staff has always been open to suggestion, hence the creation of this thread. But do not say there is no problem just because you dont wish to change your character concept.

[Peregrinus]

A number of explanations have been given as to why the racial bonuses are no substitute for 2 or 3 levels.

Actually, all those "explanations" have been complete bunk to those of us who know DnD. The reason these races have the level adjustment is because the original creators of the game determined through play-testing and number-crunching what an appropriate offset to the granted abilities that a race gains. This penalty is the balance, and any argument that it is too harsh is nothing more than whining.

Let me take the single most extreme example I can think of: A Deep Gnome Sorcerer. This is the only class that actually looses what every other build gets, level 9 spells. In return for these three levels they gain a major dodge bonus to AC, powerful spell-like abilities and significant spell resistance. Now, the ability adjustments are bad for a sorcerer, so why even make this build?

How about a more powerbuilt one? Let's stick with sorcerer shall we, since both their spells per day and spells known are tied to their level, they get the hardest hit by any level adjustment. Aasimar Sorcerer. Hmm... let's see one of the only two races in NWN2 to get a bonus to charisma, so going pure powerbuild, they start with a 20 Cha. By level 19 this is a 24 in Charisma from the level 4, 8, 12, and 16 stat adjustments, which is still higher than a comparable human would have. A 24 casting stat gives a lot of bonus spells, but significantly an extra 6th and an extra 3rd over our human. Now, the difference between a level 20 sorc and a level 19 sorc... 2 level 9 spells per day and a single level 9 spell known, 1 point of will save and 1 point of BAB.

So, let me break this down a bit clearer,
An Aasimar sorcerer loses:
1 level 9 spell known
2 level nine spells per day
1 bonus of will save
1 progression in base attack

In return they gain:
A bonus level 6 spell (from their enhanced Charisma)
A bonus level 3 spell (from their enhanced Charisma)
+1 bonus to will saves (from their enhanced Wisdom)
+1 bonus on their save DCs (from their enhanced Charisma)
Darkvision
Energy Resistances
A bonus 3rd level spell, Daylight

Knowing what I do about sorcerers and DnD, I'd say that the benefits outweigh the negatives here.

Let's try with another classic build: Drow Wizard.
Loses:
1 level 7 spell per day
1 level 8 spell per day
2 level 9 spells per day
1 base attack
1 Will save
1 bonus feat

Gains:
A bonus level 6 spell (from their enhanced Intelligence)
A bonus level 3 spell (from their enhanced Intelligence)
Darkvision
Spell Resistance 29
+2 Bonus on Will saves against spells
Bonus level 2 spell (Spell Like ability)
Extra weapon proficiencies
Extra Skill points (due to higher Intelligence)

Harsher? To be sure. But I think most of you underestimate spell resistance and all the positives. I would agree that drow are perhaps on the low end of a +2 level adjustment, but they are significantly more powerful than the +1 adjusted races.

In short, level adjustments are a fair and balanced, despite your opinions, and have been a tried method for balance long before NWN came out, to say anything of NWN2. To ignore this and claim otherwise is simply foolish.

I think the Dasarians from Dasaria 1 will understand how significant this next statement is:

In this regard, I am in complete agreement with Lanky, Bronc, and Hax (SK).

An XP cap is the fairest and most balanced way to handle level adjusted races.

[ChikenKannon]

All I (and alot of others I know) need is for the emperor or Cear itself to set Drow EoS and BAM! I'm going to have a fun time. "Man those Bugbears angered me alot, almost died. Where are those drow?"