Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?

[UltimaBoB]

Agreed which is why a cap is preferable to no cap.

My point though is that IMO people are underestimating just how much weaker an XP capped ECL races is at 20 than a non-ECL race.

There is plenty of room to lessen that divide and still make them a bit weaker than non-ecl races and thus, when combined with RP limits, a lot less popular. But an xp capped ECL race is REALLY neutered in PvP compared to another 20.

[Maevan2]

You want these classes to be less popular? Let the merchants give them noticeable worse prices and/or let some merchants not trade with them at all. Don't allow them to make some quests, especially when there is a nice unique reward. Make some NPCs really hostile to them and let the other players take care of what is still left of the drow empire

I think there are many IC ways to handle the ECL classes. If you are really worried about the balance: i wouldn't mind if somebody really makes it to lvl 20 with all those obstacles. At least we would have something to fear/hate where there are 2 or 3 level 20 drows

Maybe some level cap would be acceptable, but i would make it less then the ECL rating: none for ECL+1 and lvl 19 for the others

[Maankin]

You want these classes to be less popular? Let the merchants give them noticeable worse prices and/or let some merchants not trade with them at all. Don't allow them to make some quests, especially when there is a nice unique reward. Make some NPCs really hostile to them and let the other players take care of what is still left of the drow empire

I think there are many IC ways to handle the ECL classes. If you are really worried about the balance: i wouldn't mind if somebody really makes it to lvl 20 with all those obstacles. At least we would have something to fear/hate where there are 2 or 3 level 20 drows

Maybe some level cap would be acceptable, but i would make it less then the ECL rating: none for ECL+1 and lvl 19 for the others

I couldn't agree more

[Michael]

You want these classes to be less popular? Let the merchants give them noticeable worse prices and/or let some merchants not trade with them at all. Don't allow them to make some quests, especially when there is a nice unique reward. Make some NPCs really hostile to them and let the other players take care of what is still left of the drow empire

I think there are many IC ways to handle the ECL classes. If you are really worried about the balance: i wouldn't mind if somebody really makes it to lvl 20 with all those obstacles. At least we would have something to fear/hate where there are 2 or 3 level 20 drows

That's just another grind solution, with a more powerfull character still available in the end.

Personally, I think the merchants should reflect the common perception of the ECL classes - suspicious of drow and tieflings, extending that toward the mini-drow svirfs, and simply unwilling to be caught with an Aasimar because you never know what deity is that one associated with... and if Minuvas is not watching.

Maybe some level cap would be acceptable, but i would make it less then the ECL rating: none for ECL+1 and lvl 19 for the others

That's just haggling

None the less, it seems that there is a consensus growing about the level cap. Whowouldatunk? The details, in that respect, are best left to DM consideration, though - from what I understand, they did run a well balanced server for some time now

[muletang]

heh, in Das1 when you got EoS, which some of these races may become, the merchant for EoS was a real penny pinching git and had little stock, you also couldn't even get into town to get a fair number of quests - so this may happen as well anyway whatever decision is reached. Its a tough life aye?

[Maevan2]

You want these classes to be less popular? Let the merchants give them noticeable worse prices and/or let some merchants not trade with them at all. Don't allow them to make some quests, especially when there is a nice unique reward. Make some NPCs really hostile to them and let the other players take care of what is still left of the drow empire

I think there are many IC ways to handle the ECL classes. If you are really worried about the balance: i wouldn't mind if somebody really makes it to lvl 20 with all those obstacles. At least we would have something to fear/hate where there are 2 or 3 level 20 drows

That's just another grind solution, with a more powerfull character still available in the end.

Who said that all characters are created equal? I don't mind if there are a few characters that are more powerfull than the others, especially if it was a long and difficult way to become so powerfull. I don't want to see 50% of the characters being ECL races but i think making it really difficult for them would keep their numbers small. Even now there are not soooo many of them and making it tough for them would limit their number even more.

[Kazak]

Even now there are not soooo many of them and making it tough for them would limit their number even more.

Two nights ago I saw 6 drows piled up around the smith. That's just the ones I have seen with my very eyes.

[Maankin]

Two nights ago I saw 6 drows piled up around the smith. That's just the ones I have seen with my very eyes.

And how many deep gnomes have you seen; even over all the time you've played?

Deep gnomes should be very rare, but they're neutral or neutral good (they went willingly underground), so EoS wouldn't really apply here.
And especially deep gnomes HATE drow more then anything else, and they have good reasons. So please don't call them mini drow.

I'm just concerned that my little Svirfneblin illusionist will be stuck with a very very reduced spell palette.

[Minuvas]

... and if Minuvas is not watching.

I'm always watching.

[Michael]

And how many deep gnomes have you seen; even over all the time you've played?

Actually, quite a few, and I don't even play that often...

Of course, I could have been passing by a display of distorting mirrors...

Deep gnomes should be very rare, but they're neutral or neutral good (they went willingly underground), so EoS wouldn't really apply here.
And especially deep gnomes HATE drow more then anything else, and they have good reasons. So please don't call them mini drow.

From what I understand, they have not been present in the original campaign, so they are relatively unknown to the common masses represented by the NPCs. Given their look, and origin in (what's Dasarian name for Underdark, anyway? Does it even exist?) the same place as the drow, on top of the suspiciousness and paranoia of both middle ages and the Varanite Empire, I doubt Svirfneblin would be welcome with open arms. Their supposed affinity to moving about unseen and rogue class racial preference would also suggest mentality that would create suspicion among people that do make contact with them.

Of course, not all are reserved and secretive - in fact, my character is based on the opposites of the usual deep gnome, just because I find it immensely amusing. Still, unless the racial characteristics of Svirfneblin are changed in Dasarian settings, gnomes would arise suspicion because of their look, mannerism, and general pig-headedness of the Empire's populance.

I'm just concerned that my little Svirfneblin illusionist will be stuck with a very very reduced spell palette.

Ah, such refreshing honesty... Unfortunately, that also means that builds created to accentuate racial strengths of the race will benefit from such leniency (my own character is a fighter).

In the end, it's a trade-off of whatever the final decision will be on level restriction (if it happens) against a feat...

Not that I don't feel you. I'll miss the final BAB, if the level cap does happen. Especially since I love using large weapons with him, so that's already a penalty right there.

In the end, it's worth the effort, though. Shame the weapons scale down to character model's size

[broncoblitz]

I love how this is divided up. Those who are concerend with campaign integrity on one side, and those who care only about their characters own power on the other.

Obviously some of you don't get the proverbial "it".

There will always be people with bigger, stronger, builds than you. The veterans around here acknowledge that fully (except maybe Jimmy and Lanky, Damn their uber builds!)

Something is going to change, and compared to some of the ideas bandied about an xp cap is probably one of the lighter penalties being considered. The problem is that instead of coming up with legitimate solutions many of you are just tossing out ideas that will ultimately have no real effect on the gameplay of those races. You are in a leaky ship and you are trying to get rid of the water with a teaspoon.

Come up with a creative solution and I'm sure the Dm's may think about it. But it needs to have a very real and tangible penalty. Getting less money for selling? meaningless. Earning a bit more xp to level up? Thats only adding to a penalty many feel is already way too light.

So, my point is be creative, but think beyond simply gold and xp. Add an actual con to playing one of those races.

[StormRunner]

(except maybe Jimmy and Lanky, Damn their uber builds!)

*Snickers* Yeah, right...

Anyway, I wanted to give bronc a reluctant pat on the back for that one. Nobody seems to remember the fact that these races will still overpower people and npcs of their respective, non ecl, level in most cases. They get more power early but the scales tip slightly when they reach the top of their power. I don't see how this is unbalanced.

There is an entire game pre-20, you know.

[Tyrande]

How about this? This data is taken from another popular online NWN world

Drow Bio

* Favored Class: Cleric
* +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
* Darkvision
* Spell Resistance of 5 +1/lvl
* +2 to all Will saving throws
* Drow Aura: Gives the Drow and all his allies within the Aura 20% concealment, and any Aasamir that enter it are blinded by it. However, it makes the drow vulnerable to attacks of opportunity from all opponents, unless the drow has ultravision.
* Light Sensitivity: -2 to all attack rolls, saves, and checks in brightly lit areas. Exposure to bright light, natural or magical, blinds the Drow for one round.
* Level Adjustment +3

Svirfneblin Bio

Also known as Svirfneblin, the Deep Gnomes of the Realms are a secretive, mysterious race. Found in the deepest caverns of the Underdark, the Svirfneblin live in constant fear of slavery or destruction at the hands or Drow, mind flayers, and Duergar. Deep Gnomes are legendary for their ability to handle stone and gems. They have gray skin and gray or white hair.


* Favored Class: Wizard
* +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Strength, -4 Charisma
* +2 to all saving throws
* +2 Hide, +2 Search
* Spell Resistance of 5 +1/lvl
* Darkvision
* +4 AC
* Blur 1/day as cast by a Wizard of their character level
* Blur increases to 50% Concealment at Level 10
* Level Adjustment +3

Tiefling Bio

Twisted, devious and untrustworthy, Tieflings more often than not follow their inherent traits and heed the call to evil. A few defy their nature, but still must fight against popular opinion (if their ancestry is known) or the feeling of otherworldly "wrongness" that seems to follow them wherever they go. Beyond this aura that many find disturbing, many Tieflings are indistinguishable from Humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them or even cloven feet – no two Tieflings are the same. In most human societies, they maintain a low profile, operating as thieves, assassins, or spies. Occasionally they rise to a position of power, but when their nature is revealed, they quickly become outcasts.


* Favored Class: Rogue
* Must be Evil-aligned
* +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
* +2 Hide, +2 Move Silently
* Cold, fire, and electricity 5/- resistence
* Tiefling Aura: Gives the Tiefling and all his allies within the Aura 20% concealment, and any Aasamir that enter it are blinded by it. However, it makes the Tiefling vulnerable to attacks of opportunity from all opponents, unless the Tiefling has ultravision.
* Level Adjustment +2

Aasamir Bio

Carrying the blood of a celestial, most Aasimar are decidedly good-aligned. They are usually tall, good-looking, and generally pleasant creatures, and may have a minor physical trait suggesting their heritage, such as silver hair, golden eyes, or an unnaturally intense stare. They fight against evil causes and attempt to sway others to do the right thing. Occasionally they take on the vengeful, judgmental aspect of their celestial ancestor, but this is rare. They are rarely found in leadership positions and often live as loners due to their absolute dedication to goodness. Others are less fanatical and fit seamlessly into normal human society.

* Favored Class: Paladin
* Must be Good-aligned
* +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma
* +2 Listen, +2 Spot
* Acid, Cold, and Electricity 20% Immunity
* Aasamir Aura: Gives off a bright light, Hide penalties to anyone entering it, and blinds Drow and Tieflings who enter it.
* Darkness Vulnerability: Aasimar are blinded by magical darkness, even with an Ultravision spell active, much in the same way drow and tieflings are blinded by the aasimar's light aura.
* Level Adjustment +2

[BeyondRedemption]

A little more commentary as to why those might be relevant here is in order.

[Sunraven]

I opsted my ideas on this but it seems to have been ignored by everyone as it does not involve any nerfs. Even if the Dark Races are nerfed to uselessness as some want to see happen the number of humans is unlikely to increase all that much. You would just see more elves, halflings. dwarves and halforcs. There is already a large number of these races that I see in comparison to humans.

I don't see races as a huge problem. If more humans are wanted then give reasons for humans to be played over something else redress the perciefed balance issues by giving human only items and quests and so on. Make vendors that are rabid xenophobes who will sell and buy only from humans.

Make some races EOS sush as the drow if there are still too many. I still see more half-orcs than I see drow now. How do the people of Cear feel about half-breeds? What about dwarves, elve and halflings are they accepted? Maybe only Ram will buy and sell to them or the Ironback smithy will only deal with humans and dwarves.

How man here play a himan character as their primary? How many have no non-human characters at all?