too much magic? lexicon

[Stormknife]

Is there too much treasure dropping? Wands cost loads of gold to make. The average wand costs 13,895 gold. If there are too many wands, then there is too much gold. Maybe it's time to trim the drops again.

I'm not sure that would be good solution either; the folks who are dead set on having wands for every occasion would just have to run the dungeons more to get the money to make the wands, and the rest of us get screwed out of loot.

Maybe it'd be better to look at wands like a permanent magic item. e.g. You wouldn't put a permahaste item in the game, so why allow wands of haste?

[Wyvern]

Maybe it'd be better to look at wands like a permanent magic item. e.g. You wouldn't put a permahaste item in the game, so why allow wands of haste?

Because you have to keep paying for them.

[Maevan2]

I am not sure i would like the tone of some of the posts if i was a DM/builder

You shouldn't forget one thing: You can't build a stable house if your fundament is broken. It will become more and more difficult to fix things (if there is something to fix) the more content exits. Such things need to be done right from the beginning because later it means much more work and even more bitching about this and that from the players (like we have just seen).

You can can give players more power if necessary during the lifetime of a world. But when you try to take away anything you doomed. Trust me, i know what i am talking about.

[Stormknife]

Yeah, I'm aware. Just trying to think of some sort of "solution" that's not necessarily going to mess with the rest of us.

[ChikenKannon]

Is there too much treasure dropping? Wands cost loads of gold to make. The average wand costs 13,895 gold. If there are too many wands, then there is too much gold. Maybe it's time to trim the drops again.

Change Ealden to buying things at a max of 200 gold and the one in the mills to 300 gold. That'll put a crink in things and then actually make people want to try and sell things to others at a better price.

[The Explorer]

lol I already have a trader I tried selling +2 and +3 equipment but most had better so that char and their assistance are still carrying most of the items they had to trade.

[Dubs]

1) Wands should require a UMD check. According to the PHB, using a wand that you would not normaly be able to use requires a UMD check vs DC 20. While this is easy for some, there would always be at least a slight chance of failure, and if there was a way to implement this in Dasaria, it could keep people from dropping a few points into UMD just to use their favorite wand.

If you want to take a stab at implementing wands into the de facto UMD check as if it were a scroll.....

From the x2_pc_umdcheck script ( THIS IS THE UMD SCRIPT FILE)

// Only Scrolls are subject to our default UMD Check
// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
int nBase = GetBaseItemType(oItem);
if ( nBase != BASE_ITEM_SPELLSCROLL)
if ( nBase != BASE_ITEM_MAGICWAND)<------ADD This line
{
return TRUE; // spell not cast from a scroll
}

(SAVE AND COMPILE WITHIN THE MODULE)

I tested this as a cleric and as a fighter. The fighter has to make the check when using the wand. (Had atleast 3 in UMD)

The cleric can still use his/her Divine made wands but when it comes to Arcane wands the UMD check is still in effect.

DC 26 for Wand of Missles
DC 28 for Wand of Fire / Lightning
DC 29 for Paralyzation

NOTE: I have yet to determine the default DC's for these wands...still looking.

2) Wands backfire on failure. The above change would simply mean some lost time and lost charges, but if it was possible to make wands backfire on a failed UMD check, that might add to the risk factor; the PHB recommends 2d6 magic damage, in addition to the normal hazards of a miscast spell... i don't know if it's possible to script such mishaps into a wand, but perhaps at least some kind of magical damage could be done on failure.

This is possible, I'll screw around with it. Could implement a random script to have different effects such as , polymorph other or self. Could implement a variety of %'s for this random script. Then again someone turning themselves into a bunny for failing a Fort Save from failed UMD check...a lot of people may not like that but....I'd think it be pretty hilarious.


-----------------------------------------

COST vs RP vs Oblivion's Code

The cost is still up there with wand creation however the default costs for creation can be tweaked as well. So there can be a balance to this situation. You could implement the UMD check for wands while lowering the default crafting price for wands by using a divisor in the crafting script. (all you would really have to add is for example ( / 4) and boom 1/4th the cost gone.

For example scenario:
DC 15 for 1st LVL Wands
DC 18 for 2nd LVL Wands
DC 21 for 3rd LVL wands
DC 25 for 4th LVL Wands

[Rob]

First, x2_pc_umdcheck is an antiquated script. If you look more closely at it, you will see it it's not a simple one line change. It's built solely for scrolls (arcane magic) and doesn't account divine spells or any of the new nwn2 classes. Making it work properly with wands would require a rewrite. But, rewriting it wouldn't be too bad.

Secondly, the scripts that calculate pricing for potions, wands, and scrolls are embedded in an include file. Changing it requires a local copy of the include file and copies of all the files that reference the include file. Making this change is a management hassle. Every time there is an update, the builders need redo is the change to include new content. Making is change is a big deal.

Here's the bottom line - Dasaria 2 is not a low magic world. Dasaria 1 was a low magic world, and the casting classes dominated the content. Dasaria 2 was made mid-magic so that does not happen again. Useables like charms, potions, scrolls, and wands help close the power gap between casting classes and non casting classes.

Before we start throwing out solutions, let's make sure we have a problem. I'm not sure there is a problem here. Maybe there's just the misconception that Dasaria is suppose to be a low magic world.

[Gildren]

imho, nerfing wands in one way or another will only make it that much harder for people to adventure without a balanced party.

If that is what is the end goal, then so be it.

It would just mean that if you don't have a balanced party, you don't get to adventure.

Somehow I doubt that is what the design team is wanting for Das2.

Right now wands are being used to fill the gap. Perhaps that gap might be better filled with gear for melee characters so they don't have to be wand dependent.

[broncoblitz]

I want high level magic worl with permahaste items immunity to death spell items, +6 crap, the works!

Actually more than just i want. I demand!

[seethings]

Thanks to Coruscadragon for some great suggestions. And Dubs? for trying to implement.

Especially the Umd idea. I do think though because of the nature of Dasaria (as Exploere points out), especially at the higher levels, there would have to be an automatic char level factor. SUch that a fighter who puts nothing into wands, will by level 12 say, be able to use a wand of mage armour even if they didnt put anything into UMD... rmebering fighetrs get sod all skill points.

I agree with Explorer on this. I had a variety of simpler/low magic chars that got to level 11 and that was the end of the road unless there happened to be people to party with. And given i try really hard not to just party with just anybody for convienience out side of RP logic... SO my new char is designed around managing all the magic... being able to get to Aucklorn later in his career etc.

THE BEST and simpliest suggestion of coruscadragon, which will not nerf wands, is to remove bone wands from general stores, make them drop uncommonly from certain creature or something, or rare item in wiz tower. This would be no different to adamntine etc. You would source what you need and this would give purpose to you day.

Also I LOVE the SUGGESTION re differnt kind of bone/wood for different..magics.

[seethings]

Please dont let this thread deteriorate into... "dont nerf wands"... i believe all chars should be able to get a wand if they want....

The general point i was making was about ALL flavour of Dasaria. Even just they way we talk about items. About roleplay ideas...

"hey do you know where i can get a sword made by a master weaposmith"

versus

"hey do you know where i can get a magic sword"

Exploeres suggestion for some non magic areas... eg a swamp where the water neutralizes magic.... I would love to take the My old Caerian Knight somewhere to swing his sword, where it just comes down to 'parry' knockdown and martial abilities.... you want to heal it has to be a kit... those potions dont work. Knee deep in mud.

heheheh

[Bobzim]

I am sort of surprised we are discussing the wands "issue" again. Why would one player in Das2 be adversely impacted when another player uses wands to buff up pre-soloing or whenever else he chooses? There are a few possibilities:

1. PvP success would be somewhat limited by those who don't take the time to raise funds, purchase wands and use them to self-buff.

My response to this answer is that we choose how we want to play. PvP in our world is an elective activity with pre-arrangements for any PvP that has lasting storyline impact. So we can certainly say "no wands" in this encounter if needed.

I would venture to guess that the skill and tactics of the player is FAR more important than the availability of wands. Most of what a wand can provide can be countered. Most players are going to be dead already if they try to buff up in a PvP situation. Fighters and many other melee builds can kill quickly if they get the drop on an unbuffed caster.

If this is really an issue, why not just reduce the price of wands, reduce the req. in UMD, and make it easy for everyone to be equal in PvP. But of course that would just exacerbate another problem...

2. It is not appropriate for a fighter to "self-buff" with magic wands. "Ever seen that in LOTR"?

Well, I doubt that what is appropriate in terms of that fantasy milieu will work in terms of the Das2 RPing PW. First of all, we are playing a game, probably with limited time on our hands for such an activity (i.e., in RL). We want to be challenged, yes, and difficult content would be most welcome.

But at the same time we don't want to be required to seek a party for the period of time we have available. If we are assured to die soloing because we lack certain needed buffs, then we are likely to log off, or break our RP standards because it's all that's available, or try to solo and get frustrated by continually dying.

Or even more likely, we are just going to play casters, who don't actually need any wands. Yes, I remember playing on Das2. Isn't that the PW which was full of clerics, druids and arcane caster builds. Wow, yeah that was really awesome. Don't really remember ever seeing a melee character there. (Note: sarcasm).

It makes sense to leave the decision about wand usage up to the individual player. If I am not upset by using wands of IMA and Stoneskin to prebuff, and carrying an invis wand for sticky situations to maybe avoid a death, then nobody else should be. The more a world designer limits my choices, the less flexible the PW will be. This is not necessarily bad, but it definitely is less flexible and therefore acts as a limiting factor in what sort of players will be willing to call Das2 home.

We all want to be successful in our adventures. I say, if people have wands equipped, maybe add 4 levels to the difficulty of the monsters, or have an alternate AI that makes the dungeon far more challenging.

Some would say, you want a challenge, stop using wands. And I think that's great advice. Sometimes that's exactly what I do. But it feels better to me that it's my choice, and that on some occasions I can be successful with less risk because I can wand-up. Particularly when I have none of my friends online to party up and get my back.

Ultimately, the more quality players we have, the better the campaign will turn out because there will be an increase in overall creativity and player contributions. For me, the quality of the player base so far outweighs anything else in terms of my potential enjoyment of this PW, that I can't even really see why anyone would care about the availability of magic wands.

3. Wands effectively turn the world into a "high magic" place.

The magic level is to be determined by the world builders. To me this feels like a mid-magic level PW. High magic is more like the OC. And I think it would be FAR more boring if we all had gear that made us as uber as we can approximate with pricey wands.

Like Wyv said above, what makes wands different is that we have to continually pay to use them. So it also serves as a built in money sink for the PW. For that reason alone, many people will elect not to use them.

I agree completely with Blackheart. I like having the option to use wands. Without them, I would most likely stick with my caster builds as they don't need them.

Perhaps we should simply do away with casters as well so that it is finally what some peeps would call a "low magic" world. I played on a PW like that, and guess what? Everyone left because we still wanted to play casters.

I am very pleased with the balance the world builders here have achieved. I do not think there is a problem with wand usage. I think players should be focused on how they will contribute to the story that drives this world than to what advantages other players enjoy because they have wands as an option.

[Evelond Formos]

Harry Potter needs to be nerfed, I think. There are too many wands in the wizarding world!

[Kell]

All this talking about having too much gold and too little to spend on disturbs me, really. After lvl 15 the gold drops at an alarming rate and if you haven't stacked up on it before that you're going to be stuck with 96 gold pieces in your pocket. Not sure how it is now, but that was my experience.

I'd like to repeat what Blackheart said; there are more important things to worry about.

Don't tinker with the machine if it's not broken. This thing isn't broken, is it? If you have too much gold, it'll even out once you reach higher levels. It's like saving up for your retirement after which you can chew a bone for the rest of your days because you can't work for it anymore?

Ohh wee, I might be wrong though.