Final Ruleset and Date

[Elvith]

After reading the new rules of this thread, I'd have to agree with them. @bobzim, you brought up good points, and in future battles I'm sure that they'll lean towards a more "anything goes approach," I'm sur eyou can make your HIPS character work if you want to, or just bring a more champion-like fighter, or a bard, cleric, wizard etc.

[Stormknife]

I'm not saying Cear shouldn't use assassins, I just think it'd be stupid to have the champion be an assassin.

One word: Windy.

[Bobzim]

It's DnD you can make billions of rules and it won't be fair for PvP in some obscure way. What Shorn has basically stated is the following,

Champions are not sneaky assassin bastards, they are proud.
Champions are not dependant on buffs, they are always ready to fight.
Champions are not dependant on wands, they are strong on their own.

Just because a character can hide and strike his opponents from an advantageous position does not mean he is ashamed. In fact, there is just as much reason for a rogue to be proud, regardless of whether he stands toe-to-toe with a hulking warrior, or strikes from the shadows and uses his cunning to defeat the weaker-minded.

This is an RP tournament, not a PvP tournament.

Oh, so it's basically like the WWF? Everyone is pretending to do battle, but they're really just RPing? In this sort of "non-PvP, RP Tournament", is the victor decided at the outset, or is there actually some basis for his claim to "victory"?

If you can't tell the difference and you try to change the rules of a tournament to suit balance when you don't understand that maybe. Just MAYBE. It's because the winner is supposed to be a specific type of person.

You can define an "RP" tournament any way you like. If Shorn meant for it to be a fighter tourney, he would have said "It's a fighter tourney" and "We want the winner to be a certain type of character". But I seriously doubt that was his intention. He merely wanted to make sure classes with unique abilities didn't dominate the competition (e.g., clerics using insta-death spells and etherealness isn't exactly fair).

It may be your intention, CK, to have the winner be a certain "type" of character. That's fine. But your high-and-mighty attitude isn't too appropriate on a forum, where we go to exchange our viewpoints and discuss our mutual interest in all things Das.

You wouldn't change the rogue oriented quest to be more fair to fighters and casters because it's supposed to be for rogues. That is the reason why many of your complaints are falling on deaf ears.

Strange that my "complaints" are falling on deaf ears when so many are contributing to this thread (including you), and specifically dealing with the valid points I have raised. By dismissing them so cavalierly, you only make my case stronger. Here's how...

We are talking about a campaign mission to be undertaken by the victors of Shorn's 2-character PvP tournament. It's not a class quest, like the rogue quest. It is a single mission intended for a team, the one that will be most successful at accomplishing the objective. It's not necessarily for a duo that fits your preconceived notion of "champions".

There is no reason a fighter character should lay claim to the label "Champion of Cear" because he fits your image of a barrel-chested, iron-clad, snarling brute who lays waste to everything in his path. The objective of this campaign mission (i.e., vengeance) is not predicated on the notion that only the conspicuously strong can achieve victory.

Seems to me the ideal "champion" will be the one who has the abilities to be most successful in the specified objective: To hunt down and kill the governor's murderers.

You might be deluding yourself if you think that a straight up melee character (even some RDD-based uber-build) would have some advantage over a rogue in completing that objective. Especially if you consider that the murderer may himself be a rogue/assassin.

How exactly is your fighter going to deal with the inevitable confrontation with the killer when you can't even find him because as soon as you get belligerent he just HIPS and walks away from you? Or maybe he surrounds you with traps and lets you kill yourself. Or maybe he cripples you and leaves you in a heap on the floor, near death, ashamed and begging for the end. Oh, that cleric you teamed up with may save your hiney, but there's no reason to assume that the other killers haven't already slayed him, or rendered him ineffective.

Perhaps you figured the mission would just be WWF-style, too, with the outcome pre-determined by a storyline and you just RPing it out.

My point: If you are unable to defeat a HIPS rogue in the arena then you don't deserve to hunt down the murderers because you have demonstrated a weakness to the very type of adversary who most likely dispatched the governor. If you want to call yourself a true champion, and lay claim to deserve the honor of tracking and killing the evildoers, then you should go through a HIPS rogue to do it.

[Elvith]

Well, bobzim I'd have to say what was a very well worded post, but I think at this point, the issue has been discussed enough for future planners to be able to read and get an idea of what should be done. That being said, this particular tournament has been decided (check page 1) with enough reasons backing the decisions for me. I'd still encourage rogues to join, and I'd be happy as a wizard to lay down the darkness if needed.

[Eowade]

Another thought might be that a rogue would not bother with the competition instead he might sneak around and follow the victors await the oppurtune moment and steal the glory for himself =)


Here is a different question though. If a rogue say used a scroll of darkness or had his ally cast it would you consider it ok for him to HIPS within the darkness spell or is it just to be no HIPS at all except one?
I am not vested either way I doubt Eo would participate. If folks want a different tourney perhaps we can think up something for another mission or just an underground anything goes fight club or something I would be willing to donate towards prizes or help think up some reason for it. Allot of what we do is player driven and if enough people want something someone just needs to step up and maybe talk to the DM's about setting something up.

[Bobzim]

NOTES: HIPS is an uncounterable skill in Dasaria. The +hide move silently gear greatly outweighs the few spot gear that we have, added to the fact that wisdom is not a main trait for many characters. In addition, despite true seeing's description, it does not work, nor does any other form of stealth detection spell. and yes, I fully support not being able to non magically vanish into thin air, in the middle of the day, in the middle of an arena, in front of two highly trained opponents, repeatedly, whilst somehow doing more damage.

If the problem is with +hide and +ms gear, then make a limitation on those things, not on the HIPS skill itself. That would be fine with me. Perhaps let him use just one item, say the Varanite armour OR the Naylio weapons, but not both. From my perspective, that would be fair, whereas saying no rogues allowed isn't fair (i.e., disallowing HIPS is the same thing since a rogue without HIPS is useless).

A rogue does not do MORE damage than a fighter. He has lower ac, lower bab, and he must move to use HIPS, so he loses his dex bonus to ac and often fails the tumble check in PvP, leading to hellish crits that are almost insta-kill on him.

As for any remarks about comparing this to Pnp, I do see your point, and I see the innate flaw in it. We rp to explain a world that we have created that exists outside our own, it IS governed by logic, in every way shape and form, even to the rules we ourselves put on how magic works. If we are going to RP something, we rp it how we see it logically working, not blame it on shortcomings of the game simply because we think we can get away with it. Done. El fin. I know these rules are unfair, but they are the most logical IC rules that still allow for some balance.

That is a well-constructed rationale for disallowing rogues from the competition, but I hardly call it logical. Nevertheless, it's your tournament and it should be played based on your rules. I made my case for rogue involvement in the post responding to CK. Take it for what it's worth.

By the way, do you assume it wasn't a PC who killed the governor. How do you know it wasn't a disgruntled Cearian who dispatched him during the mayhem brought to bear by the Master's minions? Just in case it was a PC, and perhaps a HIPS-using assassin at that, ought not the "champions" demonstrate they are prepared to handle such an adversary?

I think that's logical from an IC perspective.


\\
Perhaps I will discuss with Wired adding some real complexity to the notion of Cear's champions. Not every character in this game world supports the tyranny of the empire as represented by the authority vested in the late governor. Many in Cear would consider the assassin to be more the "Champion of Cear" and of Dasaria than those who would seek vengeance on him.

If you don't fight my rogue in the arena, I hope you're prepared to fight him outside the arena, and without all those silly rules getting in the way. Who knows, your character may end up joining the late governor in his final resting place. Would you be willing to risk that for the glory of defending the empire's authority?

Think it over. I may be willing to make that wager with the "champion" if you're really game for it. And if it's to be a 2v2, I am sure I can find a friend to partner with who hates the empire as much as my rogue does. *Smiles knowingly*
\\

[Elvith]

Well, I don't think that limiting the gear would limit the power of hips one teensy small miniscule amount, nobody has spot, true seeing doesn't work and really +5 from a helm isn't much help.

Anyways, I think that if rogues were allowed scrolls of darkness to hide in, that'd bring the balance issue in to a normal range, so fighters could have a way out of getting snuck, but rogues wouldn't be able to do the hips, detach, hips, detatch, etc that they can do now. Basically what it would do would be to lower the rate at which rogues can pump out those nasty sneak attacks, while the time spent invisible would also be lowered unless the fighter entered the darkness (IMO fair game for getting smushed) If shorn would be ok with it we could maybe set up a test group OOC with a few characters and make sure that with darkness rogues would still be viable.

[Bobzim]

Well, I don't think that limiting the gear would limit the power of hips one teensy small miniscule amount, nobody has spot, true seeing doesn't work and really +5 from a helm isn't much help.

Anyways, I think that if rogues were allowed scrolls of darkness to hide in, that'd bring the balance issue in to a normal range, so fighters could have a way out of getting snuck, but rogues wouldn't be able to do the hips, detach, hips, detatch, etc that they can do now.

I would be willing to accept the limitation that the rogue must enter HIPS from darkness, whether that be cast by his partner, from a scroll, or from a wand.

[ChikenKannon]

>Editted because it's just part of a flame war<

[urgualamand]

>This is just a placeholder in case it becomes a flamewar. Locked and loaded <

[Elvith]

I would be willing to accept the limitation that the rogue must enter HIPS from darkness, whether that be cast by his partner, from a scroll, or from a wand.

Well, that's good, hopefully shorn will agree with that one, it seems fair to me. Let us hope that this topic doesn't come up next time.

[stoned-raider]

A pretty deadlocked discussion with valid arguments on both sides. Since this is Shorn's tournamnet, why not let Shorn decide about rules and the RP-environment this takes place in? If he wants to find a glourious Champion, then bring a char that can live up to that role. If you don't like the implemented rules, why not make you're own tournamnet where anything goes, or where the rules are a lot harsher? Or why not just take a step back from this tourney if you don't like the way it is held? There -will- be more tournaments, thus more opportunities to prove you're the TRUE champion.

One last thing: If some of you're chars abilities are limited by the rules, and you think (or even know) you will not be able to win anymore, why not still take part? Why does it need to be the role of the victor that you're char plays? Whn I brought Paddy into the Fighter-tourney, I was a hundred percent sure i would lose every single fight. I still had great fun, and even managed to win one round (very close though, survivng with 1hp ). In the end, there can be only one champion, and all the others have to play the loser-role. Allow others to play the victor-role. You can be pretty sure they will enjoy it as least as much as you do, and this kind of cooperative-roleplay, that everyone enjoys, and where everyone gets his opportunities to shine is what DAS is all about, isn't it?

[Elvith]

Very well put, due to the fact that teams aren't decided I'm sure that nobody will go in to it with a 100% chance of losing or winning, some teams will click, others won't. I think that the key to this tourney will be to have many fights (try to pit each team against each other one optimally) so that each team gets to test it's mettle against many different challenges.

[Shorn]

Honestly, I think thats a great idea guys, that provides perfect cover for it.

Im all thumbs up. Any other ideas?

[Shorn]

Edited ruleset, and I would like to run a test run sometime this weekend if my computer is back up and running....bah, indian tech support....