Arrrrgh! Help, I can't decide which to roll...

[Guile]

Hi again everyone. So far my adventures through Dasaria have been challenging and very enjoyable however I'm starting to lose some interest in my Monk (just got her 8th level today), and decided that I should probably roll a spell casting alt to spice up the gameplay rather than continue going full time as a click and forget character. Don't get me wrong, Shego (my Monk) is doing fine and is built well as a Dex Monk but having just 3 options at best for each encounter (stealth, attack, run) doesn't make for the most compelling questing. This especially manifests itself in groups since Monk stealth loses a lot of it's utility there (since they can't scout ahead to disarm traps and open locks anyway...

So I've decided to on the side create an Arcane caster/gish. I can't completely let go of my desire to melee so I've decided on some sort of EK variant, rather than pure casting. This however leaves me with my current conundrum... I can't decide whether to roll a strength based Sorcerer/EK or a dex based Wizard/EK! I'm pretty aware with the pros and cons of each build, and while I do prefer spontaneous casting over memorization (who doesn't) it just feels like the Wizard variant brings so many pros to the table (easier to level early on and less reliant on gear probably being the most obvious advantages) that it's such a tough choice. So I present this to you, my fellow Dasarians and ask for your opinions. I'm sure there are players on this server who have much, much, much more experience building casters/gishes so I'm asking for a little guidance. Just so you know what I'm working with I only have base NWN2 installed (no xpacs) so I don't have access to some of the more intricate builds such as the Swash/Wiz/EK. For the sake of comparison I'll outline the skeleton of the builds I have in mind, please note I'm not trying to make an "uber" build or anything. I do however, want to make sure that the character will be fully functional and beneficial to groups in combat and not just relegated to being a simple buff bot. This is a huge concern of mine, especially at higher levels where a poorly planned out hybrid can just sputter into mediocrity.

Option A: Human (Sorc 9, Fighter 1, EK 10) S: 16 (+2) D: 10 C: 10 I : 10 W: 8 Ch: 18 (+3) with 3 metamagic feats *extend, persist and empower* for casting diversity. Note: the Fighter level is just for the armor feats without further lowering BAB, and I want to make sure I have level 9 spell slots which is why I didn't go with 2 Pal instead. Like I said not trying for a min/max build, just something fun yet functional.

Option B: Moon Elf (Wiz 8, Fighter 2, EK 10) S: 12 D:18 C: 10 I: 16 (+5) W: 8 Ch: 8 this one is your typical 2w dex gish without empower but has craft wands, and of course scribe scrolls to supplement the spell casting somewhat.

I feel that option B will be a much smoother character to level, plus it has access to a plethora of skills while option A just gets spellcraft, concentration and maybe craft armor. Plus option B also ends up with the magic 16BAB at 20 (not that I plan to get there anytime soon) which is another plus. However it's hard to let go of the sheer versatility of spontaneous casting, especially when coupled with metamagics, hooray evocation spam!

Well there you have it, in case you haven't noticed there's a giant dearth of arcane casters at lower levels (I've yet to party with anyone who casts arcane spells!) and I aim to alleviate that somewhat rather than continue overcrowding the warrior types or go the cleric route which arguably make better melee gishes than arcane casters anyway. Your input and insight would be most welcome, please help me out because I'd very much like to start this character sooner rather than later! Thanks in advance.

[Alterity]

There are quite a few arcane casters about, (Zear, Naralia at 10ish, Phelan, Georg, Ari and Hyel at 18+, Lucien at about 16ish to name a few off the top of my head(Can you tell I run the mage guild? )) but I agree there are few at the low levels. However, as you seem to be having a lot of troubles with Dasaria's questing, is it really wise to start one of the two hardest classes to level from 1-10?(They are even harder then monk). I will give you the advice I have however.

Before I answer your question, I'll let you know that from 1-5 one of the best tricks a Wizard/Sorc can use for early combat quests is "Sleep". It allows you to 1 hit/kill wolves and boars if it affects them, just make sure you don't put yourself to sleep (After level 5 you can't affect anything with sleep, only deep slumber which I think is an expansion spell but not sure). If you want to specialize, take note that Illusion comes with the really powerful Shadow Shield, mirror image and displacement, and the only hide spells (Invisibility) until level 7 spells (EtherealJaunt). Conjuration comes with most of the pets (Summon Creature spells) but there are some in other areas (Mordenkainen's Sword and Animate dead. In gist Evocation contains most of the attack spells, abjuration the spell defense/breaches/dispels, divination has Premonition and power word spells and transmutation comes with most of the buffs, and the strong disintegrate spell.

Now to actually answer your question. Both are perfectly fine. My wizard could've gone EK, but doesn't needed it and still uses a sword/bow in combat occassionally. I enjoy the massive flexibility that wizard gives (Facing undead bring wall of fire and sunburst, facing orcs bring hold monster and chain lightning etc). However, most of the time he plays, he fights with Phelan, a Sorcerer EK. Phelan, spell after spell, blasts things away. Long after Hyel has run try of spells, Phelan has more. When Phelan runs out of spells, he dual wields blades to great effect.

However, does that make Phelan better then Hyel? Not necessarily. I've always stood by that both are equal. Both are arcane spellcasters with a bit of martial knowledge, both are support, however both fit a different niche. Sorcerers have a higher damage output that is more sustainable, as well as having an advantage of non-rest flexibility. What I mean is, if a Sorcerer is fighting creatures immune to fire, and is suddenly ambushed by trolls, he can switch back to his fire spells on the fly. A wizard, who focused on cold spells, would be stuck, unable to finish the trolls off. At the same time, due to that flexibility, Phelan doesn't have the ability to use spells that are good against a certain type. For example, wall of fire does double damage against undead. He can't take that because he doesn't have the room (Its subpar in most situations compared to Firebrand), while Hyel doesn't need to have it always prepared.

On average a wizard will be delegated in larger groups to doing extra buffing Stoneskin and Improved mage armour greatly increase the teams survivability for example. In gist, one spell may do 30 or 40 damage to an enemy, but then you can't use it anymore until you rest. One allies' attack can do 10-20 damage to an enemy, but hits multiple times a round, and keeps on hitting after that round. Typically its better to help your allies kill things, then to aim to do all the killing yourself, because you will run dry quickly.

A wizard and sorc (Having played the former from 1-18 and the later 1-13) are as difficult to start as the other. If you start(Or get before combat quests) with the level of fighter you do make your life a little easier, having armour to wear when you aren't casting spells (And bigger weapons, bonus BAB etc). However, you don't need a level of fighter to get EK, just martial weapons feat (Never hurts to get the fighter though with its bonus feat).

I think thats about all I can say, and I hope I answered your question somewhere in there, or at least gave you some information to help you choose

[Guile]

Hi Alterity. I appreciate the feedback! Now I don't want to sound ungrateful, (that's not my intent at all) but that wasn't quite the information I was hoping for. I'll explain further, and to try to be more precise, I'll respond to select portions of your post.

However, as you seem to be having a lot of troubles with Dasaria's questing, is it really wise to start one of the two hardest classes to level from 1-10?(They are even harder then monk). I will give you the advice I have however.

Admittedly, yes I found questing difficult on Dasaria at early levels. Please note however that this wasn't due to mechanics or lack of DnD/NWN systematic knowledge but mostly so due to lack of "meta-knowledge" of the gameworld. To clarify I have no difficulty defeating Wolves, shadows, water elementals or what have you with any class of the appropriate level. I do however have difficulty defeating them solo when they spawn in numbers on top of your character due to spawn triggers (the boars far north of Cear for example) or when unusually leveled mobs are present in an unexpected area (7+HD bugbears right outside of town.) The traps also caught me by surprise due to how deadly they are in the module compared to the single player campaign where they are trivial annoyances at worst.

Now to actually answer your question. Both are perfectly fine. My wizard could've gone EK, but doesn't needed it and still uses a sword/bow in combat occassionally. I enjoy the massive flexibility that wizard gives (Facing undead bring wall of fire and sunburst, facing orcs bring hold monster and chain lightning etc). However, most of the time he plays, he fights with Phelan, a Sorcerer EK. Phelan, spell after spell, blasts things away. Long after Hyel has run try of spells, Phelan has more. When Phelan runs out of spells, he dual wields blades to great effect.

I agree that with meta-knowledge a Wizard has far more potential to be a flexible caster. If you know you'll be facing numerous undead you can easily load up on undeath to death and fry them by the score. However this again requires some meta-knowledge of an area and in addition once you run out of castings your only recourse is to rest. A Sorcerer however can empower this and other spells to adapt the the situation on the fly which is why I find spontaneous casting so much more appealing in spite of the added difficulty during early levels, which I'll explain a little later to see if you agree with my assessment on the matter.

On average a wizard will be delegated in larger groups to doing extra buffing Stoneskin and Improved mage armour greatly increase the teams survivability for example.

Yes when it comes to group buffing a Wizard would probably be more ideal, since those slots are "used up" anyway, it's better to have the Wizard buff while keeping the Sorc's level 3, 4 and 7 slots open for his evocation spells or on the fly buffing when facing dispels. No arguments here but a Sorc is as capable a buffer as a Wizard in any case since both can use Wands and all casters want the big 5 (Prot from Evil, Stoneskin, Armor, Haste, Energy Immunity) if possible anyway should they find themselves the only character with the capacity for those buffs in a group. In my build the Wizard will have the added benefit of crafting wands freeing up numerous spell slots once he has the resources to mass produce them, especially in the case of stoneskin.

A wizard and sorc (Having played the former from 1-18 and the later 1-13) are as difficult to start as the other. If you start (Or get before combat quests) with the level of fighter you do make your life a little easier, having armour to wear when you aren't casting spells (And bigger weapons, bonus BAB etc). However, you don't need a level of fighter to get EK, just martial weapons feat (Never hurts to get the fighter though with its bonus feat).

Yes I'm well aware of the requirements for the EK. Ideally I would prefer a Sorc 10/EK 10 which is still a primary caster at heart that can melee away effectively against insignificant mobs, simplifying those encounters and reducing the dependency on consumables and resting.

The strength build, since I don't want to invest 2 feats on dual wielding on my Sorc when Spell Focus feats and Metamagics would as a whole benefit him more, will need to obtain the Armor Feats from some outside source unfortunately. The choices pretty much boil down to Fighter, Paladin or Cleric. I'm tossing out the Cleric because it unnecessarily lowers the BAB and is harder to justify from the RP perspective. The Paladin is tempting since I've softened on my stance on needing persist spell (really when you can potentially cast haste 13 times do you need to persist it?) so 8S/2P/10EK is tempting and is slightly easier to RP/justify than a Cleric. Of course the plan is to deck this character out in Armor and a shield (both Mithral) but before I have access to these materials leveling will be much more difficult since his AC will be abysmal without them. If I do go 8/2/10 I wont have any level 9 slots which hurts because I wont have access to Mord's (the other level 9 spells while fun are for the most part overly specialized) at the level cap but the saving throw bonus probably more than makes up for it.

The Wizard wont have quite the same issues since I'll be using 18dex right from the start, with judicious buffing it will be simple enough to get him to "hit only on a 20 levels" against the starter mobs. The less reliant I am on a specific gear set the better off I am, and this character would function in any Robe or Mithral based armor equally well. Having access to level 2 spells one level earlier is also a godsend as Ghostly Visage and Invisibility are "I win buttons" when utilized properly. I'm going with a Necromancy Specialist so anytime he opens up a spell level he gets multiple castings right away too. Couple this with a ludicrous amount of skill points and we can see the makings of a much easier to level caster. Yes it is still tedious early on, but as they say "no pain no gain." That's the price I have to pay for a compelling character throughout all 20 potential levels, so be it.

In the end it comes down to the "better" caster vs the "better" fighter. The Wizard will fight better since it will end up as a dual wielder and has more potential AC and thanks to being a Dex based character. The Wizard also has the far superior "stat spread" I'm not sure why I mistyped last night but it should actually read S:14 D:18 C:12 I:16 (+5) W: 8 Ch: 8 compared to S: 16 (+2) D: 10 C: 10 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 18 (+3). The Wizard ends up with Weapon Finesse, 2WF & I2WF so given equal gear/buff/character levels he completely outstrips the Sorc at melee potential.

The Sorcerer has the feat room for Empower, Extend, Spell Focus (Evo), Greater Spell focus (Evo), Spell pen and Greater Spell pen he's just trading a few spell slots for better melee potential than a pure Sorc would. In contrast my Wizard will only have Extend, Persist and Spell Pen. The Sorceror ends up with tougher DCs and fares slightly better against heavy spell resistance.

I guess that I'm somewhat leaning towards the Wizard since the journey (the leveling process) is as if not more important than the destination (end game levels) which is where the Sorc starts to actually pull ahead. Like I said in my initial post what I'm afraid of is ending up as nothing more than a glorified buff bot at high levels and without Spell Focus or Greater Spell pen I'm afraid that the Wizard could face this situation. Again, it's my lack of meta-knowledge on the gameworld that is giving me pause and concern. If you can give me in a non-spoilery way some indication on whether the Wizard can still be a dangerous caster without the added magic feats that would ease my mind immensely and I'll probably go with that. I'll edit in links to my planned builds later when I get home so it's easier to dissect them. Sorry I wasn't clearer on the situation earlier. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out I really appreciate all the input you provide! Cheers.

[Alterity]

A Sorcerer however can empower this and other spells to adapt the the situation on the fly which is why I find spontaneous casting so much more appealing in spite of the added difficulty during early levels, which I'll explain a little later to see if you agree with my assessment on the matter.

As I said, a Wizard is more flexible on the long term, but a Sorcerer is more flexible on the fly. A good wizard knows what he is facing (Even in DM events, its usually not too difficult to know what you're facing going by who the enemies of the Empire are). If you don't know what you're facing, a wizard needs a diverse range of spells to be able to spread over all possible enemies (Melee, Sneaker, Ranged, Mage are the very broad types). However a Sorcerer is like the wizard needing that diverse range, but all the time. They're bonus is that if they're facing fighters, they don't have wasted dispels (For example). They get the ability to switch from anti-fighter to anti-mage to anti-rogue on a moment's notice. This is very helpful feature and is the major strength of sorcerers.

in any case since both can use Wands and all casters want the big 5 (Prot from Evil, Stoneskin, Armor, Haste, Energy Immunity) i

I usually skip on Protection from evil/Energy immunity, preferring Protection from Elements and Shield.

Again, it's my lack of meta-knowledge on the gameworld that is giving me pause and concern. If you can give me in a non-spoilery way some indication on whether the Wizard can still be a dangerous caster without the added magic feats that would ease my mind immensely and I'll probably go with that.

From my experience, it is rare to find enemies that resist my spells. Most that do, have such high SR that I need to debuff them with a spell breach and assay resistance, but those are few enemies. Typically enemies will be unable to resist your spells, and it is DCs you need to worry about. Many many enemies have high saves, or immunities that will make it difficult the first time fighting them (There are some creatures immune to fire, others immune to cold etc, and some creatures have evasion for your reflex spells).

That looks like the answer you're looking for, let me know if you need to know something else

[Kamen]

*reads the initial post and then scrolls through the rest until his mouse scrolling finger gets tired*

I like option B, just because Option A looks like a total buff'n'bash that will have to dequip armor to buff. I hate that. If you go with option A, get still spell. I have played a build similar to either of these on Dasaria, and I would lean slightly towards Option B again.

[Guile]

Yeah that's more in line to the information I needed. So it's pretty much safe to forgo the penetration feats and just use spells like assay resistance for those specialized moments? And yes I know that reflex types usually come packing Evasion or Improved Evasion but that's what Ice Storm or Fort Killers like disintegrate are for. Spell selection is the least of my worries I have a more limited spell base anyway without the expansions installed so it's easier to "avoid temptations" on the various spell levels.

Here are the two builds I have in mind,

Sorc: http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=33422&version=1
Wizard: http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=33420&version=1

I've all but finalized the stat spreads and the skills I've pretty much got one free feat slot on both builds (toughness and weapon focus short swords are placeholders.) Tell me what you think, if either needs significant modifications and which do you think would be more fun to play through over the course of the character lifespan. Thanks again for all the help.

[Kamen]

Again, wizard build or get still spell for the sorc. I'm just guessing the strategy based on the stats, but the sorc looks like he's going to be wearing full plate. Getting into and out of a suit of full plate is a very complicated process and cannot be easily done for the sake of buffing and still maintain realism.

That being said, I had a very similar build that involved paladin, sorc, and EK. It was fun to play but mine wore full plate and a shield and used still spell to bypass spell failure, but it effectively reduced my spell-casting yet another level on a character that was already two levels of spells below a normal arcane caster of the same level, combined with the additional late bloomer of being a sorc. The result though was still a rather decent warrior that had useful spells and ultimately was rather fun to play for a time.

I also have an elven gish that wears Naithe Elven Chainmail and weilds a rapier and a kukri. The TWF animations for a female character are a little more interesting to watch if that counts. Higher INT means more skills which makes any character more fun to RP. Also without any spell failure, plus DEX and buffs, the AC is comparable to an armored caster without as much interference in effective spell progression. Until you find a set of that sweet sweet armor, you can still get by with a player-crafted mithral chain shirt. The spell failure rate is manageable.

Again, if your goal is to have an armored wizard, please don't plan it around toggling armor.

[Alterity]

Both builds look fine, I would recommend going with the Wizard/ EK for the same reasons as Kamen.

[Guile]

Thanks both of you! This thread has probably saved me countless of hours of overthinking, pondering and potential "buyers remorse" on class selection for my character. It's real concerning going in blind into a situation where a mistake here or there could potentially render a build unfulfilled. Just think about all the people who went Weapon Master for the OC or Sorcs who got excited to finally get access to Horrid Wilting and Wail of the Banshee only to find out chapter 3 was 90% populated by undead mobs!

Yeah I'm finally at ease going with the Wizard base sometimes that's the problem with too much choice, always having the "what could have been" getting in the way of the "what is." Thanks once again I'm sure with enough patience my Wizard will do well in the game. See you around.

[Alterity]

Glad I could help

Enjoy yourself and good luck!

[Guile]

Quick unrelated question, is there any way to change your familiar once the character is created? I've thought about it a bit and realized that since they have dubious, at best, use in combat I should have gone with an out of combat benefit familiar (like the pig) instead of one that provides saving throws. It's even worse as a multiclassed caster since familiars don't benefit from the EK levels. If there is please advise, if not it's no big deal really. Thanks, didn't want to start a whole new thread just for this.

[Alterity]

There is only one way, pick up a level of a class that provides a familiar. Thus, to change your familiar you would need to pick up a level of wizard if you're a sorcerer, or sorcerer if you're a wizard.

Not really the best way to fix it though, but as far as I know, the only way without remaking the character.

[hannahcoldkiller]

I've rolled one arcane caster (not counting bards) since I've been playing, and I've made him into a squishy cannon. Sorcerers just seem like more fun and less hassle than wizards in the course of gameplay. Over the course of my time here, I found buffing up for 10 minutes and then going in and killing everything is just no fun. Neither is getting dispelled. Buffing other people and following along is no fun either.

I've just taken the major damage spells along with maybe a few other minor AC spells (I don't have Improved Mage Armor at 13) and just blasted the crap out of everything. It leaves you up to vulnerability, especially soloing, but that's sometimes can be a good thing. When you have to depend on others to make it through a quest, you work more together and have more fun IMO.

But at lvl 13, I have somewhere around 60 total spells at my disposal as well as 3 meta-spell different variations of many of them. It makes you incredibly versatile on the fly. You don't have to dork around with the spell book either. So, that stops you from being a buff bot (sorry, man, don't have that spell) or being considered a spell hog (buff yourself but no one else, especially with spells that you don't need instead of helping out your buddies, a personal pet peeve). You can also heap ungodly amounts of damage on your foes.


Seems like click-and-kill is boring to you. Choosing an arcane caster that focuses on a type of spell or spell strategy can be really fun. My newest bard specializes in debilitating spells like holds and stuns plus debuffing spells. She makes killing mobs a whole lot easier plus she adds a little buffing with her songs. Bards are an awesome choice too.

[Guile]

I agree with everything you said hannah, which is probably the main reason why I decided to start an Arcane caster. Click-and-kill gets boring fast (for me) due to the repetition, it's nice to be able to throw in pyrotechnics every now and again. Like I pointed out above in my somewhat thesis length posts ending up a buff bot was my greatest fear with the character. This is also why I didn't go with a divine caster, while I contend that they make for superior gishes than arcane casters, they have the tendency to end up as buff and bashers of the extreme variety. As for Bards, they're probably my favorite base class and in fact I started up a Blackbard as well. While powerful and laughably easy to level it wasn't quite what I'm looking for right due to their very specialized "spell book." It's definitely a project for a future date though.

I appreciate everyone's input as it certainly has helped a great deal. Over the course of the past 3 days I've gotten my future EK to level 6 now and each level is more fun than the last which I couldn't quite say about my Monk (each level for her was mostly more of the same.) I'm really looking forward to getting to the mid to high levels when the possibilities start to really open up for this class.

[Kamen]

Glad its working out. I'll be rolling up a squishy non-gish transmuter pretty soon. I still have to work the kinks out of the personality and polish the back-story a bit, but I look forward to meeting your new character soon... so I can hide behind her.