Melee vs. Casters... balanced?

Neradur_Verus · Post by **Neradur_Verus** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:32 am

I did a forum search to see if this had been brought up previously but I didn't find any one specific topic (though a few touched on the issues). I'm wondering if anyone else (full wizards maybe) feel that they're a little under-powered in comparison to their dual flaming sword wielding meat grinder berserker stance brethren.

I almost think that if I were to start all over again, I probably would of rolled fighter. Leveling a wizard was... excruciating, though the side benefit was that my testicles are now harder than adamantium.

A wizard might be equal or more powerful in a select few situations, briefly and with preparation, but it seems melee can continue to dish out damage without the serious need for rest. This is compounded by the fact that you can buy potions by the barrel full, powerful plate armors and weapons are as close as your nearest Cearian weapon rack. The ability for someone with 0 in heal to use a heal kit like a surgeon seems a bit off as well.

How does everyone else feel about this? It seems if I were to party with people, my spells don't do as much damage (unless I want to kill them with AoE), they run out extremely fast and if I were to focus on a longer lasting polymorph, well, you might as well not bring someone who does half your damage! Five minutes seems like forever when you're down to your rays of frost.

Are there any plans to severely reduce the availability of heal items? Reduce the gear available for melee or improve the gear for casters?

ChikenKannon · Post by **ChikenKannon** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:14 pm

Beta: It's being tested.

Besides, I really doubt (I'm not in the position to say) that items will get much more powerful than this. Honestly I look at the wizard vs fighter with the exponential growth vs straight line growth. So while the fighter may seem to kick buttock now, you'll have your DnD appropriate desserts in the higher levels.

Besides, if you're a wizard you can do AAAAAANYthing which has its benefit.

"Alright we're starting to do this [New area that requires alot of specific skills and damages]. Finger wiggler, can you give us alittle boost in our weak side?"

Post by **Jehannum** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:40 pm

Arcane classes are late bloomers, but when they bloom it is usually over-the-top. Squishy at the start, iron in the end. This is not so different than monks. It has always been like this with D and D, and I dont think Dasaria is an exception.

xAndersx · Post by **xAndersx** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:12 pm

The usual idea is, as Jeh says, that casters bloom in the later levels at which point the meleers feel more like bodyguards to them.

I can see how it might feel a little bit different in NWN2 though. I imagine the constant flow of monster encounters in a dungeon swings the scales in the meleers favour, since they have more staying power. Also, the maxed out hitpoints for all monsters, NPCs and players alike, generally make spells less powerful. A fireball now (for example) only hurts a monster by 1/4 of their hits instead of taking off half as might have been the case with monsters following the MM stats and suggested hitpoints. Of course this will diminish the power of spells and promote fighters, since there only are so many spells to be cast until you must rest, while the fighter can keep on going, and going, and going. I think this is why we see so many casters trying to emulate fighters. They dress up as trolls and umberhulks and whatnot, simply because in NWN2 staying power pays off more. Also there's no risk of friendly fire that way, if the hardcore rules are in effect.

My suggestion is to not write off these concerns completely, as there might be some ground for them. But until everything is done and balance has been tweaked a couple of times, I think all we can do is wait and see.

Stormknife · Post by **Stormknife** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:45 pm

Wizards are fine. Learn to ration your spells at the lower levels. Hell, learn to ration your spells period. Barbarians don't rage in every single fight; a wizard shouldn't automatically lob the highest level spells they have.

ChikenKannon · Post by **ChikenKannon** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:26 pm

I still am fearing the day that three wizards will meet up and decide to hunt people down one at a time.

Wizards: You have a low will save? *DEATH SPELL!*

Stormknife · Post by **Stormknife** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:46 pm

Why meet up and why one at a time?

Wail of Banshee fixes a lot of problems.

obsoletenihilist · Post by **obsoletenihilist** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:46 pm

ChikenKannon wrote:I still am fearing the day that three wizards will meet up and decide to hunt people down one at a time.

Wizards: You have a low will save? *DEATH SPELL!*

That's when you have assassins death attack said wizards who have a low fort save.

Things will always balance out.

Maankin · Post by **Maankin** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:00 pm

The decision to grant all NPCs and PCs their maximal amount of hitpoints combined with a limited rest environment makes playing a wizard tougher then it was in NWN.

Things you can do to overcome this are:
* ration your spells ( only use them to kill enemies with a high ac or to deliver the finishing blow when a party member is in trouble)
* concentrate on buffing your party members
* use crowd control spells, you'll know how effective they are when you enter the bugbear cave without a mind immunity buff
* use summons, a well timed summon as an extra damage source or a meat shield is always welcome.

some little used, but good spells are
*blindness/deafness: this effectively disables an other caster for 1 round/level.
*a lesser spell breach can make a boss fight as easy as any other fight for your party members.

rdit:
removed, but I don't really count this as an exploit, IF you do it the way a rogue might do it - with moderacy and no respawn exploits. You're also submitted to the same risks as a rogue.

ChikenKannon · Post by **ChikenKannon** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:32 pm

*invisibility, why kill all your enemies when you can run past them and pillage all those chests, weapon racks and scroll cases without them noticing you. All your money problems are gone with this level 2 spell.

Remove this. Don't be a whore.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:37 pm

If you do this, do not be surprised to have rather nasty critters with see invis spawning around chests all of a sudden, or all loot drops being creature-drop only (which is now in place, in certain areas).

Maankin · Post by **Maankin** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:00 pm

Wyvern wrote:If you do this, do not be surprised to have rather nasty critters with see invis spawning around chests all of a sudden, or all loot drops being creature-drop only (which is now in place, in certain areas).

I wouldn't mind some critters with the see invisibility or blindsight spell, that sounds even like a good idea. You'd expect a shaman or mage to have it in his repertiore.

Evelond Formos · Post by **Evelond Formos** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:27 pm

. . . I was wondering when this debate would start . . . here's the reincarnation of the subrace thread, people.

Elrith · Post by **Elrith** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:30 pm

Evelond Formos wrote:. . . I was wondering when this debate would start . . . here's the reincarnation of the subrace thread, people.

...and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth as Evelond revealed the true nature of the beast.

EdCase · Post by **EdCase** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:05 pm

*Sigh*... If you play as a caster..take your lumps,plan your spell usage and most importantly make friends with a meatshi...*cough* talented user of weapons.