Hit Points per level and other random thoughts

[ErictheRed]

Hi all! First, a quick intro: I played pnp AD&D 2nd Edition for years, and later enjoyed games like Baldur's Gate on the PC. Although I own a 3.0 rulebook, I haven't actually played any pnp roleplaying games since 2nd edition. I did, however, play NWN extensively, and am beginning to do the same with NWN 2. I recently found Dasaria, and so far I'm really impressed. Since this is an open Beta, though, I thought I'd chime in with some random thoughts.

First off, I agree completely with the sentiments on another thread about limiting pickpocketing to items under a certain weight. It just doesn't make sense to be able to pickpocket away someone's armor!

[ErictheRed]

Secondly, there's an issue that I don't think I've seen brought up anywhere: Hit Points. The way I see it, they're currently very unbalanced in Neverwinter Nights 2. The way the rules are set up, a d4 class should receive an average of 2.5 hit points per level, a d6 class 3.5 HPs per level, a d8 class 4.5 HPs per level, a d10 class 5.5 HPs per level, etc. Instead, all classes get their max amount of HPs at each level-up. I think this is grossly unfair to those, like Wizards, at the low end of the spectrum. The way the rules are supposed to work, a level 10 Wizard would have an average of 25 hit points (before applying Con bonuses, Toughness, etc.). A level 10 Fighter should have an average of 55 hit points before bonuses, for a difference of 30 hit points. The way the game works now, however, a level 10 Wizard has 40 HPs and the Fighter has 100, for a difference of 60. That's an enormous advantage to the Fighter! No wonder people complain that direct damage spells aren't effective; everyone has way too many hit points!

As a proposed solution, I think classes should be given their average number of HPs per level, rounded up. Thus, a Wizard would get 3/level, a Rogue 4/level, a Cleric 5/level, Fighter 6/level, etc. I've thought about this since the original Neverwinter Nights, and I think this is a great solution.

[Delemont]

I think this is a great solution.

Not a great solution IMO. It's just a tightening of one screw on the RMS Titanic known as class-imbalance.

[k9burn]

Well this solution would affect PvP more than PvE. In PvE, while the monsters have more hitpoints....so do the players...and thats better for player survivability. Also, a wizard who expects to go into a dungeon and blast everything to smithereens would be disappointed, regardless of the HP issue. They would run out of spells quickly (unless they were level 17+).

Its a reasonable idea, but I'm not convinced its a an easy fix, or a good idea. It might also have some unforeseen side effects..

[Grayle]

A wizard can cast Bears Endurance among other spells, affecting thier own hit points. Other classes have similar abilites.

[k9burn]

I think Fighters should get more spells, too.

They get plenty of spells:

Potions of healing
Potions of barkskin
Potions of bull's strength
Potions of ...

[Grayle]

Ha, too fast for me. I tried to be less snark and more pro-active in my reply.

I think a Fighter's greatest defense is his hit-points. Hit points are really thier armor, especially against magic.

If Fighters cast spells, they would lose thier appeal. At least to me. The fact that it is one of a very few non-casting classes is a major reason I chose it.

[Tlantl]

As a proposed solution, I think classes should be given their average number of HPs per level, rounded up. Thus, a Wizard would get 3/level, a Rogue 4/level, a Cleric 5/level, Fighter 6/level, etc. I've thought about this since the original Neverwinter Nights, and I think this is a great solution.

As an equally old AD&Der I favor the random roll for hit points. I also think that the availability of potions of ability increasing, (the spells too) should be very nearly impossible to find. Those buffing magics were intended to increase the power of the casters not the world in general. In a PnP game your DM would ( I hope ) limit these potions in favor of a more balanced treasure. Having them available in shops and as treasure found on creatures makes them cheap and overpowering.

I am in no way suggesting that the team working on the game change anything. I don't really care one way or another how one runs their game. It's just my take on the matter.

[Neradur_Verus]

As a proposed solution, I think classes should be given their average number of HPs per level, rounded up. Thus, a Wizard would get 3/level, a Rogue 4/level, a Cleric 5/level, Fighter 6/level, etc. I've thought about this since the original Neverwinter Nights, and I think this is a great solution.

As an equally old AD&Der I favor the random roll for hit points. I also think that the availability of potions of ability increasing, (the spells too) should be very nearly impossible to find. Those buffing magics were intended to increase the power of the casters not the world in general. In a PnP game your DM would ( I hope ) limit these potions in favor of a more balanced treasure. Having them available in shops and as treasure found on creatures makes them cheap and overpowering.

I am in no way suggesting that the team working on the game change anything. I don't really care one way or another how one runs their game. It's just my take on the matter.

I would tend to agree with the statement about buff and heal potions readily available... in fact I bring it up enough to be some what annoying... Since this is a beta, I am thinking that sometime in the future this might be addressed. Having less potions might actually encourage more strategic play or having healers heal.

[ErictheRed]

First off, thanks for the replies. I'm glad to get some discussion going, and I agree that buffing potions and the like should be far less available.

Tlatl, I actually also am in favour of random rolls to determine hit points. However, in an online persistent world without a DM to supervise everyone as they level up, I think it's important to make sure everyone gets their fair share. For instance, I'd hate for a player to roll a 1, a 2, and another 1 for hit points on three consecutive level ups!

For everyone else who dismiss my idea out of hand, I don't think you've thought the issue through enough. This is not to imply that you must agree with me, but I really don't think that this tightens the screw of class imbalance. If anything, this loosens the screw by getting hit points more in line with what the designers of D&D actually intended.

As I pointed out before, a 10th level Wizard should have "rolled" 25 hit points, not 40. A 10th level Fighter should have rolled 55 hit points, not 100. Now who's getting more of a bonus? And a 10th level Barbarian should've rolled 65 hit points, not 120! If anything, I think the current system adds more to class imbalance.

I think we've all been spoiled by computer RPGs where we can roll and reroll to our heart's content, often making too-powerful characters (Baldur's Gate, anyone?!?). Getting the max amount of hit points per level just seems normal. But it's not. It's not the way the game was designed or balanced to be. All I ask is that my idea (or another similar one) be thought about and maybe play-tested instead of being categorically dismissed.

edit: One side effect of this sort of idea would be that the Toughness feat might need to be redone as well, but that shouldn't be too hard. Also, I like Dasaria a lot so far and I don't intend this post to be critical of Dasaria, just online NWN 2 in general.

[Jay Four]

I agree with you almost 100%. The HP thing is very annoying and I completely agree that the average is more correct.

I also agree with Grayle that a fighters HP is his most valuable asset, but I don't believe the two ideas are in conflict.

The thing is, it is very difficult to actually implement such a thing. So, it probably won't happen. Would be be better? Probably. But without some help from Obsidian, it's just not feasible.

[coruscadragon]

MY old PnP DM had an interesting policy on this: everyone rolled their HP on the appropriate Die, but if you rolled less than half, you automatically got half the highest possible roll. This way, there was still a chance of getting a better-than-average roll, but it eliminated the frustration of lvling and only gaining 1 HP...

i don't know how applicable this is to a PW, but personally i liked it... *shrugs*

[k9burn]

I agree with you almost 100%. The HP thing is very annoying and I completely agree that the average is more correct.

I also agree with Grayle that a fighters HP is his most valuable asset, but I don't believe the two ideas are in conflict.

The thing is, it is very difficult to actually implement such a thing. So, it probably won't happen. Would be be better? Probably. But without some help from Obsidian, it's just not feasible.

What happens if you change the hitdie value in classes.2da? And does it accept odd numbers? (like 3, 5, 7 etc..). If it did, that would be the fix.. (based on the OP's idea). Wouldn't need OE to help.

[Wumpus Slayer]

I wouldn't mind if players had average hit points as long as it also applied to monsters.

[ChikenKannon]

I wouldn't mind if players had average hit points as long as it also applied to monsters.

And the Hardcore rules were turned off. Oh this is fun every enemy my level has a 1-20 chance of killing me instantly.