Area Analysis & Critizism *spoilers - if you are new don

Forum for suggestions on server improvement suggestions and balance discussions, bug reports, invalid characters.

Moderators: Dasaria Game DMs, A&SI Moderators

Seise
Dasarian
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:41 am

Area Analysis & Critizism *spoilers - if you are new don

Post by Seise »

*If you are new on the server stop reading now, as this might spoil some aspects of your first time exploring adventure*


Area Analysis & Critizism

As for startes, I want to tell why I think this way about these areas:
I've exped 2 characters now up to level 7, and 2 up to 12.
I've soloed, partied with 'strangers' and partied with 'my team' (while we play together we have teamspeak on and co-operation is kinda good: We've played together like 8 years now - Since Diablo 2)
So I believe my insight here covers pretty much all of those playstyles. *smiles*

While I'm talking about area, I try to think area as being played against "Challenging" monsters. I mainly concentrate to the balance issues with reward per spent time.
Some areas got obvious flaws and Iäll try to point them out here. This is not supposed to be attack against developers, but more like give hints which aspects could be balanced out and why I think so.




Start level dungeons (lvl 1-3) :


All dungeons pre lvl 6 has same problem: There are quests which give way superior rewards than the dungeon crawls ever do: The hunter's chain.
Flagging it doable once only (and if then, perhaps raise it's total exp value - lvl requests on each part, like 1 for wolf part, 3 for boar - and 4 for last choosable part)
could really do the trick to make people to crawl more of those dungeons (more players out from 'North of Cear' to make it lag less!)



Goblins
Goblin area seems to be really nice, dark and mean basic dungeon. Just similar as every P&P game's introduce dungeonscenario would be.
Sad fact is that there seems to be no point to go there. I've been on the server month and a half now, and I've found only one reason to enter there and it's "onetime" quest.
Bonus on this dungeon is that it's soloable by (at least in theory) any class, just being harder for casters - like everything else on the early game.
i've also heard that there is second floor in this dungeon, but to be honest: It's not tempting enough to crawl in there. Some NPC hypeing it up could do the trick.. among reducing the exp with leathers.

Pros: Well made standard area.
Cons: No real reason to go there.
Suggestion: Add a quest or two for encouraging players venture the area and reduce the experience amount ones could get from the leathers.
Players really should be encouraged to do something else than log once after each reset to gather that 1000 exp from leathers.


Aquaducts
Graphically one of my favorite areas in Dasaria with way too good quality treasury and really low exp.

Pros: Feeling in the dungeon is awesome. Can be easily soloed.
Cons: Again, almost no reason to go there. 150exp for one quest. Well..it's fast quest, like 10 mins max. Treasures deeper are quite good, but... hey! Dungeon where you can't get real exp?
Mobs only give 5. So.. Kill 200 of these mobs for getting 1000 exp or should I log back within an hour or two and return skins? Dungeon has nothing special, just mobs.
Suggestions: Add harder mobs deeper and add more quests to this dungeon too. Take off few piles which gives scrolls and addd few weak easily spottable random traps. ("I've set some traps for the rats, so keep your eyes open..")


Low level dungeons (lvl 2-7)


There seem to be real problem at level 6, as there are almost no quests/dungeons which players could solo. This is dream time for partying though, but partying is not always an option.
Shouldn't there be something for those players which can't get party for a reason or another? Suggestion: Add lvl 5-6 quests to Aquaducts' end and to beginning of Rat area.


Falier's Basement
Quite standard undead crypt. Nothing we haven't seen on NWN1.
Overall reward & treasure quality is on the level I'd like to see generally in Dasaria.

Pros: Interesting story built around gathering items. Area is really well balanced, in XP and in item/gold vise.
Cons: Reward for getting the ritual is not worth it.
Suggestions: Add reward quality / XP for the finishing the ritual. Toggle it to be done once only.


Rats!
Another really well done and balanced area.

Pros: Balance here is really ok. Takes a while to solocrawl it, but it's doable. But if you take a party with you it's still not too easy. Awesome balance here!
Cons: Only one level dungeon of this quality! I want more this quality dungeon(s)! (And at the moment, quest is bugged)
Suggestions: Fix the quest!


Mid-Low level dungeons (lvl 6-10)
These areas have some balance issues vs people stealthing and picking up only the treasures and quest items. If getting unintended fast exp and amount of gold which ruins the server's economy is not bad enough, it usually ends up to situations which pisses players off: fighthing your way to the boss' room with your party you only can see how some mage comes out from invisibility and takes the reward from the boss. Then your party needs to wait untill it spawns again. This has happened to me now several times within a week, and it pisses me off all the time more and more.

Bugbears
Pros: Balance is pretty good here too.
Cons: This dungeon slightly suffers from "invisibility walkers" who just pinpoint the bosses and gather 1800 exp within 10 mins and then make it undoable for the group which comes after the walker and wonders where the hell are all the questmobs...
Suggestions: Add something which slows the invisibility walkers, like force them to kill something more than just mobs for the keys. Make invis break if damage is taken or something... :)



Bearcave
Tiny cave with bears and bearboss.
I don't have anything to say for the area. It just is an area with bears. Nothing special. (6-11 bears in cave sized like that?)
Pros:
Cons:
Suggestion:



Kalem Brotherhood
Really good and quite long dungeon with great mobs and well balanced XP! Treasure level is really too high: Problem is that mages and rogues can gather like 40 000gp worth of items within 15 minutes and then repeat the run.
One of my group's player tried this, and returned 60 000 gp to me in same time when others of the group cleared the bugbears. If it stays as it is, it really cripples the economy of the server on the longer run.

Pros: Area is well made, highly trapped and descent XP reward giving dungeon and quests to the dungeon are pretty well done and balanced.
Cons: Treasury level is too high. Add the fact it can be run through within 10-15 mins invised / stealthed and you have one awesome infine treasury. I really hope this get's fixed somehow.
Suggestions: Thiefs can't guard their treasures from other thieves?! I would like to see some mobs with high spot and some others with see invisibility.



Midlevel areas ( lvl 10-14)
Most of the areas are well made and well balanced. Some minor tweaking should still be done.

The Tower
Hard and really well planned area with quite well balanced xp reward / kill. Add the well written quests and pretty descent treasury and the masterpiece is ready!
In my opinion: The Best dungeon in Dasaria at the moment! And it puts the quality level quite high for the other builders. *smiles*

Pros: Almost perfect.
Cons: I've heard this is soloable by some caster class(es).
Suggestions: Add few "Elite mage knight guard" (or "Guard Golems" if it suits it better) mobs with high amount of spellresistance and trueseeing and that should solve casters soloing the area.



Orcs
Standard dungeon crawl, with nice ending.

Pros: No rest allowed! (I personally love that - Just opinion, some other prolly add that as a con). I like the concept at the end, altho it's bit too similar as the one in Tower.
Cons: Low XP and treasury level.
Suggestions: It makes sense that Shai Orcs do not have many treasuries, but when the mobs are relatively hard and dying is quite easy there, the XP should be bit higher per mob or XP reward from the quest could be bit higher.



Trolls
Entered the cave. on first room I got earthquaked, then I tried to heal and got killed by deathspell.
I'll analyze this one later when I've done it few times.

Pros:
Cons:
Suggestions:



Bandits
Nice outdoor area with bandits and their Ogre King

Pros: Very goodlooking outdoor area with interesting (altho kinda unimaginationable (is that the proper word) ) concept. Boss is well made and hard enough. Altho his saves could be slightly higher. He is The King of the Bandits after all.
Cons: Playtechnically very unbalanced area. As 'kikkelipoika' said on some other topic: How poor bandits (they are BANDITS for god's sake, not Marcus' elitetroops!) have Adamantium Arrows enchanted with Lesser Dispell?
I can understand the need for balance against mages, but giving them gear which would cost more than average farmer could get with
Suggestions: Try to figure some other way to balance them against magefarmers. Wildmage bandits having aura of Spellresistance and greater Dispels ready for the hostile hunter mages perhaps? Or Glyphs of Greater Dispelling (aka traps) spawning here and there to guard their camp.
Give them Silence auras? Or what the heck..? Why not make it hard to concentrate on their area, forcing them to take Concentration check vs XX on each cast?


The Maw
This is only area covered here which I've done with "too low" character, mobs being very difficult to me.

Pros: Different spawns on day and night.
Cons: XP per kill seems to slightly off balance. Atleast nightspawns give bit too much XP if compared to threat they give.
Suggestions: Tune night spawns' Xp bit down (like 10% or so)
User avatar
KoolestLoser
GLORIOUS DASARIAN
Posts: 1132
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: Reincarnated, dood.

Post by KoolestLoser »

Add the fact it can be run through within 10-15 mins invised / stealthed and you have one awesome infine treasury.
I'm pretty sure the DM's do not approve of this.
Image
"Do you think I could get away with another beauty spot?"
"Any more beauty spots and people will think you've got the plague."
Akimbo
Dasarian
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:48 pm

Post by Akimbo »

You really hate mages dont you.
broncoblitz
Dasarian Hero
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:55 am
Location: A modern magician working in a Lab

Post by broncoblitz »

KoolestLoser wrote:
Add the fact it can be run through within 10-15 mins invised / stealthed and you have one awesome infine treasury.
I'm pretty sure the DM's do not approve of this.
I say we encourage it. It's always fun seeing someone stripped of all of their worldly possesions by some unseen force in the middle of town.
I'm always right. I'm also a jerk. It's not my fault you can't get over the latter to see the former.

Hurray for Me!

Topic titles are like turn signals. They aren't for your benefit, but for the people around you.
Seise
Dasarian
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:41 am

Post by Seise »

Akimbo wrote:You really hate mages dont you.
No I don't, one of my characters is a mage. :)
Mages are just pain in the arse while balancing an area: if you overdo it, mages are worthless, if you even slightly underdo it, mages are getting XP and treasures atleast four times faster than other classes.

If someone asks me: High level mage SHOULD get xp bit faster than other classes as that's what they've paid for on the lower levels but not like 3-4 times faster.
(note that my suggestion on bandit area would make it actually doable for the mages, buffing it up for casters unlike it's now - Altho someone pointed me out today that on bandit area there IS a reason them to have uber expesive gear.. lorevise that is. (I still think if it'd be only a balance issue, then it would've sucked big time) )

Point on this thread is that no class nor character type should way too sharp edge for soloing. Higher level dungeons and areas are at the moment balanced for parties and if one, any, character soloes the area he'd get way too good rewards for it (both gold AND XP vise), even if it takes 3 hours to do that.

As I see it there should be also areas for soloers too, as finding a party isn't always an option. (there are few fast solo quests, but I don't see those satisfying enough as those are like 10 min task to complete. There is need for huuuuge quests which could be done as a solo: Like "Gather 300 <item name here> for me and I reward you well!" - Reward should be equivalent for those party quests, like 100 x current leve exp and some nice item which everyone wants: Like +1 Saves and RED light instead of orange rings... :twisted: )
Eowade
Dasarian Scout
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:41 am

Post by Eowade »

Seise wrote:
Akimbo wrote:You really hate mages dont you.
"Gather 300 <item name here> for me and I reward you well!" -
heh then don't add magic bags and don't make the items stackable =P
Did you know that the average fish contains more mercury than a rectal thermometer? Would you eat a rectal thermometer?!
Seise
Dasarian
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:41 am

Post by Seise »

Eowade wrote:
Seise wrote:
Akimbo wrote:You really hate mages dont you.
"Gather 300 <item name here> for me and I reward you well!" -
heh then don't add magic bags and don't make the items stackable =P
haha.. That's why it's called "hardcore quest!" ;)
Mensha Khaine
Dasarian Hero
Posts: 715
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:04 am

Post by Mensha Khaine »

the goblin area's have quest attached to them. The second one is a little hard even with a group of two for the level range. Take healing lots and lots of healing.
When there is no other way, the perilous path is the only road to salvation.
urgualamand
Dasarian Hero
Posts: 798
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:51 am
Location: Denmark

Post by urgualamand »

broncoblitz wrote:
KoolestLoser wrote:
Add the fact it can be run through within 10-15 mins invised / stealthed and you have one awesome infine treasury.
I'm pretty sure the DM's do not approve of this.
I say we encourage it. It's always fun seeing someone stripped of all of their worldly possesions by some unseen force in the middle of town.
This has been the case? -sigh- Why did I miss that. It should have been made a public event with popcorn and beer.
"Pain or damage don’t end the world, nor despair or f*cking beatin’s. The world ends when you’re dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man — and give some back."
- Al'Se'RhuSha - CaliliaD - Mandrake - Sythe
Seise
Dasarian
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:41 am

Post by Seise »

Mensha Khaine wrote:the goblin area's have quest attached to them. The second one is a little hard even with a group of two for the level range. Take healing lots and lots of healing.
RP- and exploring-vise it is interesting place, but not concentrating those at this post.

I know these two too quests (farmer and medicine delivery), but as said above, it's still not tempting enough area rewardvise: There are technically hundreds of mobs which does not give good exp if compaired to other same level quests/areas. Again, I think one of the biggest reasons not to go there is too good reward from the skins. And Marak also competes on the same levels with Gobs. Marak-quest is re-doable and gives max of 660 xp/run.
So if you can return the hides and do Marak on server restarts you'll get ~1660 exp in less than 10 minutes. XP vise that compares to like 300 goblins kills.
If it takes two rounds to kill a goblin and you can kill gobs all the time and don't die (mission impossible :twisted:) it takes about an hour.
Ofcourse those two quests are there to balance that gap.

So, as I stated above I believe the medicine to make this place more tempting could be toggling those startquests doable by once only. Still those'd be great xp boost and would encourage players to explore the world more.
Akimbo
Dasarian
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:48 pm

Post by Akimbo »

I'd also like to add while I'm here, that I feel the areas are too close to town mainly. It's cool to have some like the Kalem actually -in- the town, but some, bugbears especially come to mind, would be better off further away from town, even if you just put in one area you had to walk through to get there. Would just make it feel a little more 'adventure' like imo. I mean I'm level 11 on my current character, and havn't gone further than two areas from North Cear.
Seise
Dasarian
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:41 am

Post by Seise »

Akimbo wrote:I'd also like to add while I'm here, that I feel the areas are too close to town mainly. It's cool to have some like the Kalem actually -in- the town, but some, bugbears especially come to mind, would be better off further away from town, even if you just put in one area you had to walk through to get there. Would just make it feel a little more 'adventure' like imo. I mean I'm level 11 on my current character, and havn't gone further than two areas from North Cear.
I believe the real problem lies in the way how this game (note game, not world) is built.

Outdoor areas reserve way more room than interiors.
Here is an example:
I made outdoor area of 8x6 squares, and there I made a 3 level dungeon, each of them were 8x8 sized areas.


my dungeon.mod (3 maps, all of them being 8x8 interiors) file size was like 200kb.

Exterior forestarea.mod (8x6) was 16.7Mb

That's (most likely) the reason why those are that "dumped" into very few exteriors, some of them being "unnaturally close" of aras where human live. Like Bugbears, Shai Orcs, Bears near Thrall's gate etc.
Stormknife
Dasarian Hero
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:24 am
Main Player Character: Draco
Other PCs: Shroud, Lorcann
Location: The Original Dasarian Kitsune.

Post by Stormknife »

I'd also like to add while I'm here, that I feel the areas are too close to town mainly.
Considering the number of transition crashes in the game, I'm all for limiting the number of transitions one has to go through to get to a dungeon.
Draco - "Allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste."
Lorcann - "BACON!"

<*>
Akimbo
Dasarian
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:48 pm

Post by Akimbo »

Yeah that's true Seise, outdoor areas do tend to be bigger, however I'd be willing to download a bigger file if it created a larger more 'real' world. Immersion is everything for a PW.
Considering the number of transition crashes in the game, I'm all for limiting the number of transitions one has to go through to get to a dungeon.
It's not that many, and from what I've been reading, a fair amount of it has to do with the number of people in the one area ( Northern Cear. ) I rarely transition crash anywhere other than there, so the further you can spread people out the better surely? I find Das 2 suffers from the same thing a lot of servers do, and that's the difficulty scale. 2 or 3 areas away from Cear and I die in under 10 seconds with a lower character. Thusly people are heavily restrained as to where they can go. If there were areas slightly further away with things to see and do for lower level players, without them being butchered after 5 minutes of walking out the town gate, there'd be a lot more exploring going on.
Warlock
Dasarian
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am

Post by Warlock »

If it stays as it is, it really cripples the economy of the server on the longer run.
funny thing is, I ahd several characters that have well between 25k to 300k in gold. As far as ruining the economy, that can only happen if there is something worthwhile to buy. You'll notice as you gain levels you have less and less interesting stuff to buy and then you'll jsut start giving your money away because its basically worthless at higher levels. Speaking for myself anyway with 2 characters 14 lvl +
Post Reply

Return to “State of the Server”