Knockdown vs. Displacment/Mirror Image

VarnithisXIII · Post by **VarnithisXIII** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:39 pm

Knockdown is a melee touch attack that checks the person who is attacking with knockdown's strength vs. the targets higher of strength or dex. It seems very powerful but is working as intended expect against targets with mirror image or concelment. Currently, Knockdown ignores mirror images and displacment, making it easy for a high strength melee type to floor a wizard/sorceror permantly regarless of magic defenses.

Might want to come up with some rule for it, because it is unlikely that Obsidian even considers this, and it effectivly makes casters completely useless against high strenght melee builds.

Grayle · Post by **Grayle** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:41 pm

Why was the Discipline skill removed, I wonder?

It made much more sense with regard to resisting being knocked down than this mess seems to.

VarnithisXIII · Post by **VarnithisXIII** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:48 pm

As insane as this will sound, the removed Disipline because the PnP diehards whined about it. It doesn't exist in PnP DnD, and Knockdown is actually trip attacks. But... they way the implimented Knockdown in NWN just screams Half-Orc 200 strenght 3 intillegnce munkin ownage. It's completly lame and they probably won't fix it.

I honestly feel bad using knockdown on Guthag right now. I can floor almost anyone with ease, and I knew it was broken when I wasted a level 7 wizard by interupting every spell till he was out of everything and I let him go because it was just too cheap.

Grayle · Post by **Grayle** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:53 pm

Yeah, I know about the PnP references. Strange there would be such a fuss considering all the other non D & D aspects to NwN2, and it's original.

Has anyone ever seen a Knockdown fail? I haven't.

VarnithisXIII · Post by **VarnithisXIII** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 pm

On a whim, while conducting "business" with Gurthag, I tried to knockdown another half-orc alot. He resisted it a couple times, but it was over 50% success rate.

Keep in mind I only have normal knockdown. With Improved knockdown I'm treated as a large creature, giving medium sized players a -4, and small something like -8. That's when it becomes completely broken and has a 95% success rate regardless.

muletang · Post by **muletang** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 pm

only ever resisted

Grayle · Post by **Grayle** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:05 am

I've heard a rumor Knockdown is getting the official nerf. Probably only a temporary problem.

Kazak · Post by **Kazak** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:19 am

Grayle wrote:Yeah, I know about the PnP references. Strange there would be such a fuss considering all the other non D & D aspects to NwN2, and it's original.

Has anyone ever seen a Knockdown fail? I haven't.

My IKD is getting resisted all the time, just travel with me and you will see. Where did you hear about the nerf? Just curious.

VarnithisXIII · Post by **VarnithisXIII** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:24 am

Kazak wrote:My IKD is getting resisted all the time, just travel with me and you will see. Where did you hear about the nerf? Just curious.

NPCs seem to resist it easy. Don't ask me why.

I have yet to find a player who can consistantly resist Gurthag's knockdowns. Of course, I have 21 strength, which has alot to do with it.

Kazak · Post by **Kazak** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:32 am

I just sparred K9 last night, he is a level 11 fighter with 30AC and 18 str I believe. He resisted probably 3-4 KDs out of 10 or so. When I fought him I was a lvl 10 monk.

I don't know enough about the numbers to argue the point here. I sparred a caster before and he wooped my butt and resisted my KDs as well.

After they nerf KD I am sure the whiners will find something else to whine about

I just don't see how a KD is such a big deal when someone is running around with a scythe criticaling for 106hp at lvl 6 and a level 7 druid soloing bugbears cave (including the boss).

VarnithisXIII · Post by **VarnithisXIII** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:39 am

What is your strength?

If you're strength is also 18, then you had a 60-70% success rate with knockdown against a player the same strength as you. That isn't bad at all.

Right now a smart caster will have at least 14 strenght and cast Bull's Strenght on himself to protect himself from knockdown. That is their only defense against it.

Knockdown is only a problem against casters because it ignores all their defenses and forces them to have a high strenght stat to not be completely locked down by a big smelly retarded orc with a tree branch. That's just wrong.

The game is entirly out of balance right now, and this is just a good example of it.

Kazak · Post by **Kazak** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:45 am

As far as I know, there are no monk NPCs with a knockdown. And according to my knowledge, just a couple of monks with IKD. A few fighters with KD, but like you said KD is less powerful than IKD? Right?

I guess a caster should pick their battles for now until this issue is resolved. *shrugs*

And I really doubt the game is TOTALLY out of balance because of KD

....

VarnithisXIII · Post by **VarnithisXIII** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:51 am

All Monks get KD and IKD for FREE at level 6.

I didn't mean the game is out of balance because of KD...
Just that KD is an example of imbalance.

DnD is inherintly imbalanced. CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid -zilla) is the undefeated champ of imbalance in DnD. NWN2 reflects this, but in all honestly do you think it is right for a mighty wizard with unfathomable power to be defeated by a retarded orc who happens to have learned to trip people and is really strong?

Post by **Jehannum** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:30 am

6 pages of this was quite enough in the generals.

Thanks.