Hit Points per level and other random thoughts

[Inziladun]

I personally despise random rolls on things like hit points and attributes. Although I'm not entirely against the idea of lowering hitpoints per level to the average, rather than the max. However, I think this would unbalance a lot of spells, weapons and things will most probably need to be rebalanced.

I think it'd be easier just to leave things as they are.


I also agree that potions are too easy to come by and are far too powerful in the way they can stack and make a class five times more powerful than they normally are. Like having a portable Cleric constantly buffing you up. I can't really think of a solution other than limiting their abundance that wouldn't require scripting.

[Loswaith]

There are a few things AD&D was a bit more balanced towards hitpoints than 3.0/3.5.
It is alot easier to hit things in 3.x, for example a character needed a 17+ strength to get even +1 to hit, while 3.x is alot higher take 18 for example in AD&D the best possible bonus a fighter could get was +3 to hit with a strength of 18(100), others were limited to +1 with a strength of 18, now any character can get +4 to hit with an 18 strength, and simply the +1 with a 12.
While damage is a bit more metered, higher at the low end and loweher at the high end of strength bonuses.

Secondly, there's an issue that I don't think I've seen brought up anywhere: Hit Points. The way I see it, they're currently very unbalanced in Neverwinter Nights 2. The way the rules are set up, a d4 class should receive an average of 2.5 hit points per level, a d6 class 3.5 HPs per level, a d8 class 4.5 HPs per level, a d10 class 5.5 HPs per level, etc. Instead, all classes get their max amount of HPs at each level-up. I think this is grossly unfair to those, like Wizards, at the low end of the spectrum. The way the rules are supposed to work, a level 10 Wizard would have an average of 25 hit points (before applying Con bonuses, Toughness, etc.). A level 10 Fighter should have an average of 55 hit points before bonuses, for a difference of 30 hit points. The way the game works now, however, a level 10 Wizard has 40 HPs and the Fighter has 100, for a difference of 60. That's an enormous advantage to the Fighter! No wonder people complain that direct damage spells aren't effective; everyone has way too many hit points!
...

I also look at it differently, take your numbers the averages of 25 and 55 for the wizard and fighter respectivly while with full they are 40 and 100 respectivly, in both cases the wizard is slightly under half of what the fighter is.
Like wise take the fighter and barbarian, averages of 55 and 65, fulls of 100 and 120, the barbarian is about 20% more in both cases.
Whether you take the average or full amount the balance is the same.

Dont forget to add to their hit points wizards get the damage reduction spells that effectivly add hit points to what they have, At level 10 for 2 spells a wizard effectivly gains 100 hp towards melee attacks with stoneskin and 300hp (or whatever the max is) vs elemental attacks with Protection from Energy, for only 1 3rd and 1 4th level spell.
Not to mention the other protection spells wizards get.
The fighters extra 60 hp dont realy look all that great now do they? Especialy if you consider damage reduction is based on a material type now rather than an enhancement bonus like in nwn1/das1, making it harder to breach.

I found in dasaria 1 that almost everyone had max or close to max hp anyway, and that was with rolling, so we are in the same boat now, why change things.

If there was to go a way to change it, my advice would be to set it to 75% of maximum, so d12 = 9, d10 = 8, d8 = 6, d6 = 4 or 5, d4 = 3, however to modify the character amount woud require a 2da change and thus a hakpak.


One thing to note is the max hp only apply to PCs, NPCs/monsters allow you to set the hp as you want, the default ones I believe are at the average for their dice but am not sure.

[Neradur_Verus]

There are a few things AD&D was a bit more balanced towards hitpoints than 3.0/3.5.
It is alot easier to hit things in 3.x, for example a character needed a 17+ strength to get even +1 to hit, while 3.x is alot higher take 18 for example in AD&D the best possible bonus a fighter could get was +3 to hit with a strength of 18(100), others were limited to +1 with a strength of 18, now any character can get +4 to hit with an 18 strength, and simply the +1 with a 12.
While damage is a bit more metered, higher at the low end and loweher at the high end of strength bonuses.

Secondly, there's an issue that I don't think I've seen brought up anywhere: Hit Points. The way I see it, they're currently very unbalanced in Neverwinter Nights 2. The way the rules are set up, a d4 class should receive an average of 2.5 hit points per level, a d6 class 3.5 HPs per level, a d8 class 4.5 HPs per level, a d10 class 5.5 HPs per level, etc. Instead, all classes get their max amount of HPs at each level-up. I think this is grossly unfair to those, like Wizards, at the low end of the spectrum. The way the rules are supposed to work, a level 10 Wizard would have an average of 25 hit points (before applying Con bonuses, Toughness, etc.). A level 10 Fighter should have an average of 55 hit points before bonuses, for a difference of 30 hit points. The way the game works now, however, a level 10 Wizard has 40 HPs and the Fighter has 100, for a difference of 60. That's an enormous advantage to the Fighter! No wonder people complain that direct damage spells aren't effective; everyone has way too many hit points!
...

I also look at it differently, take your numbers the averages of 25 and 55 for the wizard and fighter respectivly while with full they are 40 and 100 respectivly, in both cases the wizard is slightly under half of what the fighter is.
Like wise take the fighter and barbarian, averages of 55 and 65, fulls of 100 and 120, the barbarian is about 20% more in both cases.
Whether you take the average or full amount the balance is the same.

Dont forget to add to their hit points wizards get the damage reduction spells that effectivly add hit points to what they have, At level 10 for 2 spells a wizard effectivly gains 100 hp towards melee attacks with stoneskin and 300hp (or whatever the max is) vs elemental attacks with Protection from Energy, for only 1 3rd and 1 4th level spell.
Not to mention the other protection spells wizards get.
The fighters extra 60 hp dont realy look all that great now do they? Especialy if you consider damage reduction is based on a material type now rather than an enhancement bonus like in nwn1/das1, making it harder to breach.

I found in dasaria 1 that almost everyone had max or close to max hp anyway, and that was with rolling, so we are in the same boat now, why change things.

If there was to go a way to change it, my advice would be to set it to 75% of maximum, so d12 = 9, d10 = 8, d8 = 6, d6 = 4 or 5, d4 = 3, however to modify the character amount woud require a 2da change and thus a hakpak.


One thing to note is the max hp only apply to PCs, NPCs/monsters allow you to set the hp as you want, the default ones I believe are at the average for their dice but am not sure.

Just to add, an issue here is that wizards have lots of neat buffs... that can be purchased cheap from your local vendor.

[lankycheese]

They changed the random rolls to always max hitpoints because people would just keep canceling the level until they got the max roll. I think it's much better to get the max hitpoints as it works well for a PC game. A set average maybe I could live with, but random rolling is stupid IMO. There is enough dice rolls in this game as it is and when I'm building a character I think hitpoints is something that should be constant.

We should be thinking of ways to make this game more compatable with the PC online environment, not closer to table top PnP.

[k9burn]

If there was to go a way to change it, my advice would be to set it to 75% of maximum, so d12 = 9, d10 = 8, d8 = 6, d6 = 4 or 5, d4 = 3, however to modify the character amount woud require a 2da change and thus a hakpak.

A 2da change on the server doesn't require a hakpak, however there is one problem: putting a different classes.2da file in the server override would make existing characters illegal. They would all need to be modified.

[daniel.alcantara]

I pretty much agree with everything Inziladun and lankycheese posted (dont want to make a huge quote here), but i just wanted to add something regarding potions.

If Dasaria is meant to be a medium-low magic world, there is something not right imo.

What is the point of limiting item bonuses, making a +2 stat item very hard to find, when you have charms that grants you a +4 stat bonus, 4 times, for 50gp?

I'm not complaining here, i enjoy the pw very much as it is and will certainly continue to do so even if they distribute bags of potions every Tuesday.
I'm just part of the crowd that thinks making potions expensive and harder to come by will make the game far more enjoyable.

[Stormknife]

Making potions "hard to come by" benefits three people.

1: Casters.
2: Powerbuilders.
3: Masochists.

The rest of us would rather be able to actually play the game instead of praying for a cleric or druid to log in so we can try to level up.

[Kazak]

Clerics and druids... why is that? Not like they heal

[ChikenKannon]

1. DM client goes live
2. Remove all potions except for the lowest basic healing potion (Minor I believe)
3. Have a DM make a character that sells other potions but only a set amount and only once every week.
4. Sit back and watch the mayhem.

[daniel.alcantara]

Making potions "hard to come by" benefits three people.

1: Casters.
2: Powerbuilders.
3: Masochists.

The rest of us would rather be able to actually play the game instead of praying for a cleric or druid to log in so we can try to level up.

Do you really need a Cleric with Bulls Strenght on his spellbook to level up?
If you play a rogue with 12 str, thats it. You're weak(physically speaking). You'll only use that potion when you really need an extra power. But if you have 30 of it in your inventory, why not just walk around constantly buffed?

But as i said, its a minor thing (and considering the amount of people who disagree, it will most certainly remain as it is)

And just for the record, i dont fall into any of these categories. I'm a warlock

[Stormknife]

Bull's strength? No.

Bark skin? It makes life a hell of a lot easier.

[daniel.alcantara]

But then, if you wanted life to be easy you'd have rolled a druid/cleric, wouldnt you?

(i tried a little bit of cleric and hell yes, life is easy....but again, warlocks are way cooler)

[Stormknife]

I'm a warlock because I wanted to play a warlock.

And I didn't say easy. I said "easier". There's a difference.

[daniel.alcantara]

On a second thought, i do see your point. I dont dismiss mine, but understand yours. Maybe my suggestion could really lead to over dependance on certain classes...and this would definitely not be good.

On top of that, i just realized i'm worrying too much about how other people play their games...if they want it easy, let them have it.
If i want it to be tough, i'll just stop buying potions and start to fight without armor.

[demon022184]

I think full HP's is perfectly fine considering most caster's get many 1d6 per level dmg spells in there repitoire. Not to mention if you did only get half HP per level Wiz would only be at more of a disadvantage when a meleer can kill your L20 Wiz with a 40 dmg crit or two normal hits.

Lowering the amount of HP's we recieve would greatly hinder completing dungeons without dieing.

I find it disappointing we have so many pvp based thread's. This isn't a PVP server so why worry about it.